Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Nathan and Kelly. Yeah. Welcome.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Is this your first time here? Okay. Not hallucinating.
It can happen, right?
And I see Jordan and Trina, who I haven't seen for a while as well. Hope there's nobody else I'm forgetting. Yeah. There you are. Great to see you.
Been watching your Instagram, Jordan. Stylin.
So, Yeah.
So we have this nice, cool day, which is a reminder of turning us towards Rohatsu Sessin, which begins in week and a half. But our goal for today is to hear you talk for now.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: Thank you, Ogetsu.
So I'm recovering from a little bit of a cold, so if I sound a little raspy, I'm. I apologize, but I'm not infectious anymore. So the talk will transmit Dharma, but not virus or anything else.
So this is a very special day today at Ancient Dragon's End Gate. So I want to precurse the talk. I'm going to talk about Ben Do Wa, which is a teaching or fascicle written by Dogen, who is the founder of our lineage. He in Japan in the mid-1200s. But before I get into that, let's talk about our very present day. Today we have one of our very own. Reuben Keller is undergoing priest ordination under his teacher Taigen a little later this afternoon.
So this is a very fortuitous day for our Sangha.
We haven't had a priest ordination within our community for almost 10 years now, me being the last one.
And I wanted to.
Now, Teigen did a great talk a couple weeks ago about the priest ordination, about the ceremony itself and some of the meaning behind it.
So if you're curious about that, I highly encourage you to go online, find that talk. It's already posted and have a listen.
But I wanted to talk about when I was initially ordained under Tigun, and the one important thing he told me, because oftentimes becoming a priest, you know, we have all these different roles within the Sangha. There's lay ordained people, there's priest ordained people, there's dharma transmitted. Teachers could be a little bit of confusion and there's a bit of a hierarchy to it. But ultimately in the long run, we're all equal in our practice.
But when you do go through these special things, you need some definition around it. So Teigen had told me that the most important role the priest fills is supporting Zazan practice.
That is the most important role and that's the priest's responsibility.
So that has very much resonated with me through all the years. And even if I find my own priest training or priest roles difficult. I always go back to that very sound, simple advice that any of us could do.
The second thing that resonated with me, we have another teacher in our lineage named Norman Fisher, and he has a wonderful writing on what it means to be a Sotozen priest.
And he said, you're also agreeing to take on the archetype of the priest and the different things that could mean, but essentially, in a very broad sense, the archetype of the priest. Now, this is not me personally, but the archetype, the symbol, what it represents.
You represent being a renunciant, meaning you renounce the kind of everyday machinations of the world. Not that you're checking out somehow to follow this way that the Buddha laid down for us.
You're also committing to be of service to the Sangha and to the world at large. If someone needs help, you try to help in the way that skillfully makes sense in that moment.
And then it also means you're portraying an embodiment of the Buddha Way, and that's how you carry yourself in the world, through body, mind and speech.
So this is the archetype that someone who does take on the role of a priest is willing to take on. And I'm bringing those two things up specifically because it does pertain a little bit and a lot to the fascicle Ben do wa that Dogen wrote. And now I want to talk a little bit about Dogen's practice so we could put it a little bit into context, what he was writing about when he wrote this.
Bendowa is a Japanese term that has been translated a couple of ways. The wholehearted practice of the Way, or sometimes on the Endeavor of the Way, the Way being this practice of zazen.
I'm using text from. There's a couple of good books out. Teigen has a translation which Shohaku Okamura called the Wholehearted Practice of the Way.
I'm using the book called on the Endeavor of the Way, which is edited by Kaz Ta Nehashi. So that book was compiled by a number of teachers, Tigun also being one of them, and cos put those fascicles together.
But anyway, let's look at dogen. At age 13, he ordained as a Tendai monk in Kyoto. The impetus for his ordination was he was trying to answer a question for himself.
The question being, if we all have Buddha nature, then why do we have to practice? Because if we all have Buddha nature, the nature is already there.
We're not really calling anything forth. It's already there. So why do we have to practice to realize it?
So he enters the temple as a Tendai monk at age 13.
He finds, and I always love these stories because it's like things are different, but yet they're not.
The politics, the hierarchy, the teaching, whatever the case is, he finds this unsatisfying for him personally, and he's not seeming to scratch beyond the surface of what he's looking for.
So he leaves that temple, and at the age of 18, he switches over to Ken & Ji, which was founded by Eisai, which was the person who brought Rinzai Zen. Our lineage is Soto Zen. Rinzai Zen is another lineage within the Zen umbrella.
Eisai brought Rinzai Zen to Japan, so he was known as a powerful teacher. This temple was known as a fertile ground for practice.
Dogen decided to go there.
He was unsatisfied, though, because most of the training was koans. It's not that he disliked it, but he still found that he was just scratching the surface of the questions he wanted answered for himself.
So Eisai was already passed away when he was there, and he had a successor named Miuzen.
And it was decided that Dogen and Miuzin were going to travel to China to find the answers to these deeper questions that they had, because the true Dharma was in China.
So at age 23, he set off to do that with Miu Zen. They settle in Zhejiang Province, and they stopped into a few temples here and there. But they still were not finding satisfaction with the practice and with the answer to this question about Buddha nature.
So then it was suggested that they go to Tiantong Mountain to the temple there.
And the teacher there was Ru Jing.
And Tigen gets there at the age of 25. He stays there until the age of 27. Or he finds his teacher at the age of 27. And unfortunately, in the middle of all of that, Miuzin dies. But Tigen does find a teacher now who resonates.
I'm sorry, but isn't it the same?
Isn't it the same, Tigun? It's all the same.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: Because.
[00:08:06] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. Because Tigen is bringing forth Dogen's teachings, and Dogen brought forth Ru Jing's teachings. So you see where I'm going with this, right?
Thank you, Hougetsu.
David goes, Tigen's not that old.
That was him.
But anyway, hopefully everyone online still following this wagon train down the road. Okay, good, Right. So he finds his teacher, Ru Jing.
Things are flowering, things are percolating, things are coming to fruition for Dogen now under this teacher, he receives dharma transmission at the age of 29.
And then finally by the age of 30, he returns to Japan shortly after his dharma transmission.
So here he is, a 30 year old man, still young by anybody's standards, and he finally got the answer that he was seeking. He finally, the practice that he was hoping for is finally coming forth from him. So he has a lot of enthusiasm. He feels it's his mission. He's going to go to Japan and he's going to teach other people what he learned in China. So he's brimming with enthusiasm and. And of course the world never changes. So what does he find? He finds a lot of opposition to his enthusiasm when he gets there.
But anyway, nonetheless, with that opposition and a little dampening of the enthusiasm at age 32 or 33 years old, he wrote this fascicle that we're going to look at.
And then shortly thereafter he also founded his first practice place, which was Kannandori Inn.
So he did find a temple later. I don't want to go into that because I want to look at the fascal that he wrote. But I want all of us to understand kind of where he was at in his practice when he wrote this down and the journey that he had embarked on. And he was kind of on the tail end of that journey, at least at this point.
So Bendowa is written in six sections. And it's the second writing that Dogen did after he got back to Japan. The first one being Fukanza Zengi, which is literally direct instructions on how to sit zazen, how you hold your body, how you find your spot, how you prepare the area around you, what you focus on with your breathing. All of this is just very practical instructions.
So that was the first thing he wrote. The second thing was Ben do wa. So now let's start taking a look at the text itself. So I'm drawing the text from, from Moon in a Dew Drop. And I want to show you the book because we have it in our library.
And then if anybody does want to read this for yourself, I highly encourage you to do that so you can see how the words fall over you and your understanding from where you're at.
Okay? Section one. And I gave little subtitles to them on my own. Okay. There is no other practice that can compare.
Dogen says all Buddha, Tathagatas who directly transmit inconceivable Dharma and realize supreme perfect enlightenment, have a wondrous way, unsurpassed and unconditioned.
Only Buddhas transmitted to Buddhas without veering off, sitting upright. Practicing Zen is the authentic gate to the unconfined realm of this samadhi.
So even though sutra study and rituals support this practice, it did before Dogen started studying. It did while he was studying with his teacher, and it did after he studied and brought Soto Zen back to Japan.
What he is saying, even though these things support our practice, it is not the essence of our practice that the zazen is the essence of our practice.
I'll go back to the text one more time, because it could be hard on the first hearing to let it settle in.
All Buddha tathagatas who directly transmit inconceivable Dharma and realize supreme perfect enlightenment have a wondrous way, unsurpassed and unconditioned. Only Buddha is transmitted to Buddhas without veering off, sitting upright. Practicing Zen is the authentic gate to the unconfined realm of this samadhi.
So in our modern day, through books or YouTube or podcasting, all of these things support our practice.
By no means do we doubt that it does.
But this is a practice that cannot be transmitted through books or YouTube or podcasts. It has to be transmitted through zazan.
And then we'll get on to the rest.
So now, as he's writing, he has an answer to his original question about enlightenment. And he goes on to say, although this inconceivable Dharma is abundant in each person, it is not actualized without practice and is not experienced without realization.
So he's confirming that although this inconceivable Dharma is abundant in each person, it is not actualized without practice of zazen, and it is not experienced without realization.
In other words, the only way you realize it is by practicing zazen. There's no other way.
And practicing zazen within that practice, you're practicing not necessarily to find it, to grasp it, but you're practicing it to actualize it.
So it's something that has to come from within you.
So then when you actualize it, then you have realization of it.
So in Japanese, this process itself is called juju yuzan mai. In English, it's called self fulfilling Samadhi.
And according to Dogen, this self fulfilling Samadhi, this juju zanmai, is the standard of our practice.
It is the standard of the practice he brought to Japan and he found in China.
In other words, it is a state of continuously unfolding in this present moment.
Now, he goes on to explain it a little bit more, because in some ways, it still feels like a question, but that's okay.
He goes on to say, the concentrated endeavor of this way allows all things to come forth in enlightenment and practice all inclusiveness with detachment.
We pass through the barrier and drop off limitations.
So once again, the concentrated endeavor of this way allows all things to come forth in enlightenment.
And while that is happening, practice all inclusiveness with detachment.
We pass through the barrier and drop off limitations.
So the concentrated endeavor, the concentration of the individual in this endeavor, allows all things to come forth. Everything, everything we can imagine, everything in our universe, everything beyond the universe.
Even though there's one individual in this concentrated endeavor, all of it is there and all of it is coming forth in a symbiotic relationship between the two.
It creates an all inclusiveness, meaning to me, an acceptance of everything with detachment, meaning without attachment. You're accepting all of it without grabbing this string or grabbing that string or grabbing that string, which I like to call cherry picking. Cherry picking reality.
This self fulfilling samadhi allows us to accept all of it with detachment, meaning we could accept all of it without getting buffeted one way or another while we're in the midst of it all.
Okay, so that's a lot. And that ruminates with us as individuals, but with all these amazing teachers that we have in our past and hopefully in our future.
There is another caveat to this. A little warning and a little caution. Because this sounds wonderful. Easy enough to sit in Zazad by yourself.
Maybe he warns or he encourages us.
You must engage with a teacher to fully realize this.
So I'm going to also add to that.
You must engage with the archetypal power of a teacher in order to realize this self fulfilling samadhi.
So in the next section of this fascicle, he's talking about practice places with Chinese standards that support this practice of zazen.
And now he's trying to explain a little bit about how this came forth within him.
He's arguing for it in a sense, because he knows people need to be convinced. Right?
But anyway, so he recounts the journey, his journey that we kind of went through at the beginning of this talk, and his commitment to bringing the teaching he found in China back to Japan.
And then of course, when he came back, we said he did have a lot of opposition. So that took a little bloom off the rose, in a sense.
And his first reaction to that was like, you know, okay, fine, I'm not connecting, I'm just going to wander about and I'll have this teaching.
But then the more he thinks about that, he realizes that in Japan there are Sincere students, just as he was, who may be getting confused by unqualified teachers within the system that is set up already in Japan.
And this is not unique to Japan. This happened also in China when Buddhism first came to China.
And then he realizes when a sincere student might find a teacher who could be unqualified in the Dharma, they could get distracted by things like sutra study, like ritual practice, by all kinds of things that we feel are important for our practice, which is important for our practice. But they can lead us off into delusion, thinking that all these things surrounding the practice is the practice itself.
When Dogen keeps saying zazen is the practice.
So he's thinking about if some of these students kind of walk down the wrong path because of unqualified teachers, he says they could be indulging in smug self satisfaction.
Now we know how that goes. You think you really know something because you're with the best teacher or whatever the case might be, and you're fooling yourself that you know more than you actually do.
So he was concerned they could be indulging in smug self satisfaction, and they may sink into the land of delusion for a long, long time.
And then he's realizing, Dogen's realizing that if he's wandering around, how can these sincere students find him?
They might not be able to.
Especially if you ever tried to meet someone in a big like event and people are moving around, you never find the person. You kind of have to stay in one spot to meet your friend, right?
So he didn't commit to necessarily opening a temple or anything like that. But he realizes that being an island is not the answer. And he commits to recording the monastic standards that he found in China, so writing them down and maybe sharing them with people who had established places.
And then in this fascicle, then he moves into section three, where it is his desire and hope that the fertile ground of practice starts to emerge in Japan like it did in China.
And then he tells us that initially in China, when Buddhism came in the first century cd, it was like a cacophony. There was all this noise and all this practice going on, and all kinds of things going on within the practice, all kinds of methodologies.
So even though they had all kinds of things going on in the middle the country that was like the powerhouse at that time in the world, nothing, none of the true Dharma was there until Bodhidharma came and sat in the cave for nine years and transmitted the single mind seal.
Now, the story tells us a lot that Bodhidharma came and Sat zaza in a cave for nine years. But we forget all the time that the dharma got transmitted. Because finally someone wanted to be taught by him. Wei Ka came to Bodhidharma and asked to be taught. And Bodhidharma agreed.
So the single mind seal. Now, the word seal sometimes could confuse us a little bit, but I want to use the word authenticator to try and put the single mind authenticator was then transmitted by Bodhidharma in cooperation with Huike.
And this is when the true dharma started flowering in China.
So remember, he said, you actually need someone else to have this come forth.
This is his hope for Japan, that this fertile ground, these seeds could take root, and this fertile ground will emerge, and this will start happening in Japan. From our perspective, it did. Right as we're sitting here in America now, Is it happening in America?
We don't know yet, do we? Maybe we do, maybe we don't. We'll see.
And then in section four of the fascical, he starts to look and talk a little bit more about the teacher to disciple, or teacher to student, or the disciple to teacher, student to teacher relationship. Because in our minds, because in the west, we're very linear about everything. When you say teacher to student, we're always thinking, it's a line from up here to down there.
And then maybe the student will become a teacher. And then it still goes downhill. And we have other sayings about what happens, about stuff that flows downhill. Right.
And I found this interesting in this part of the fast call. In his own words, he says it was done so because teachers and disciples.
I'm sorry? Because teachers and disciples personally transmitted this excellent method as the essence of the teaching.
Notice, he says teachers and disciples personally transmitted this excellent method. He didn't say the teacher transmitted it to the disciple.
He also doesn't say the disciple transmitted it to the teacher.
He's not discriminating as to what actually happened in that relationship, but he's just saying they personally transmitted it.
So I personally am making the assumption is that they transmitted it to each other equally.
So this goes back to what we initially started talking about at the beginning of the talk. We're actually all equal in our practice.
We just choose to play different roles in that practice. But the practice itself is the great equalizer, because everything comes forth in it.
So Dugan tells us with enthusiastic advice, based on this, from the first time you meet a master.
And I like that this was translated as master now, not necessarily teacher, because sometimes masters aren't teachers. Masters are somebody who knows Something about something, and they might be teaching and they might not, doesn't mean they don't know something about something.
From the time you meet a master, without engaging in incense offering, bowing, chanting Buddha's name, repentance, or reading scriptures, you should just wholeheartedly sit and thus drop away body and mind.
From the first time you meet a master, without engaging in incense offering, bowing, chanting Buddha's name, repentance, or reading scriptures, you should just wholeheartedly sit and thus drop away body and mind.
So you express. These are his words. Still, you express the Buddha seal and body, speech and mind by sitting upright in samadhi.
And when you do this, the whole phenomenal world becomes the Buddha seal and the entire sky becomes enlightenment.
And then he goes on to list enthusiastically how everyone, everywhere, everywhere you could possibly think of, even inanimate objects, or what we consider inanimate objects, experience this dharma, bliss and unsurpassable enlightenment.
And then he wraps up this fascicle in Section 6, saying, Practice and realization are one. So we touched upon this in the beginning.
He says, all this, however, does not appear without perception. I'm sorry. All this, however, does not appear within perception because it is unconstructed in stillness.
It is immediate realization.
Practice and realization are not two things, but one.
The zazen of even one person at one moment imperceptibly accords with all things and fully resonates through all time.
Thus, in the past, future and present of the limitless universe, this zazen carries on the Buddha's teaching endlessly.
Each moment of zazen is equally wholeness of practice, equally wholeness of realization.
I'm going to read that again, but before I do, I want to talk a little bit more about the teacher. Disciple, teacher, student, student, teacher, disciple, teacher relationship.
I don't completely understand it, and I've given myself to this process, this relationship.
I can't say wholeheartedly because I have my pushback against it.
But that's what our teachers work through with us, I think, because I'm still in the middle of the process.
But I will say this. Hougetsu tells me all the time that you need to be near. Like, what do you need from the teacher? Well, no one knows. Everyone's different. Yes. No. Up, down, who knows, right? We all think we need certain things.
But you need to be near the embodiment of a teacher who realized this self fulfilling samadhi.
And you need to be in proximity with them, you need to walk with them, you need to do bows with them, you need to chant Sutras with them.
It's not necessarily the process of these things. It's doing these things with them in close proximity.
The idea being that the true Dharma is coming forth from them also with you, because you're part of it. Because the self, the self fulfilling samadhi is part of all of it.
But you're wrapped up in that powerful experience they have.
It's not. It's not about necessarily knowing more texts and all this kind of stuff, but they have just a longer experience of practice. And it's for you to realize your own flowering of the true Dharma. It's important to be within that field of practice. That's what I'm taking away from it.
Let me read this one more time, and then I want to hear what you think and you feel based on your experience that you've been having in practice. Whether you have a formal teacher or not, it doesn't matter for your experience, you have what you need at this moment in time. Right?
Dogen said, the zazen of even one person at one moment imperceptibly accords with all things and fully resonates through all time.
Thus, in the past, future, and present of the limitless universe, this zazen carries on the Buddha's teaching endlessly.
Each moment of zazen is equally wholeness of practice, equally wholeness of realization.
Thank you, everybody for indulging me and listening to this talk. And please bring forth anything it brought forth for you. Don't be shy.
And we have mics to pass around if you're in the room.
Joe's raised his hand.
Hey, Joe.
[00:28:38] Speaker C: Hi. Hi, Paula. Good talk as usual.
I do have a question, but before I get into that, I'd like to thank the Care Committee for their lovely get well card. As some of you know, I'm under treatment for prostate cancer.
And treatment is going very, very well so far, I'm happy to say.
And my PSAs are down. I've had some experimental laser treatment. I volunteered for that. And my PSA scores have gone down from seven to less than one, which the doctor is very pleased with, as am I. So. And y' all have been giving me a lot of support on this, and I. I appreciate the continued support.
And Reuben, I am going to get called away this afternoon, but congratulations in advance. And I look forward to learning and teaching with you. Continue learning and teaching with you.
So have a good. Have a good day.
My question is no detachment at the same time is all inclusiveness.
Now that it seems like a tall order from where I sit, because if I'm. If I'm to adopt an attitude of all inclusiveness, I'm going to want to attach.
And if I want to detach, I'm going to start.
I'm going to have the tendency to exclude certain things.
So I'm not sure how one would square that circle if one does.
So that's my question, I think.
[00:30:19] Speaker A: You know, first off, I'm glad you're doing well.
And Reuben Gashoed, your, your. You couldn't see him because of the camera angles, but he gashoed your well wishes for him.
I think it's a challenge for all of us. But I will go back to one of the other teachers in our lineage who talks about this and has a nice way of stating it is Reb Anderson's being upright.
He says don't lean into things too much, which would be attachment, and don't push away from things too much, which would be detachment.
But just sit upright.
And sit upright is our zazen posture.
So I have faith in the process of our practice. And if we are grappling with what this detachment attachment might mean, I remember this sound advice to completely sit in zazen and experience what it might mean.
And you know, we only really know then once we get off the cushion and we start moving around in the world.
But hopefully our experience as a Zen then helps us realize when we're leaning in with our whole face and when we're pushing back with resistance.
And we could possibly adjust accordingly based on the experience of those feelings.
And I know that's like a dog chasing its tail answer. But that's the best I could do, Joe.
[00:32:01] Speaker C: Not. Not at all it isn't. So what I'm hearing is this inclusiveness is best facilitated by metaphorically and physically being erect.
[00:32:12] Speaker A: Correct.
That's what I've heard over the years from the people sitting zazen around me.
[00:32:20] Speaker C: Very good. Thank you.
[00:32:22] Speaker A: Thank you so much.
Michael Tenzel.
[00:32:26] Speaker D: Paula, thanks as always for your talk. I enjoy them much and I appreciate you kind of setting the tone for the auspicious day. That's the adjective to use right from the very beginning. The phrase that you said, the archetype of a priest has not left my mind partially. Growing up Catholic, that has a lot of extra connotations. And I'm sure I'm not alone in this room or online.
I don't know, I wonder if you could say more about maybe what that is to you or like, you know, I don't know a ton of Zen priests. You know, I've met some people, but I don't know. Like that. That feels also like a big bag where lots of things could be included in, you know, the archetype of a priest. It feels very cagey language. Or it could be cagey language. And I know it's not what you meant, but I don't know, maybe just elaborating on that.
[00:33:15] Speaker C: I appreciate it.
[00:33:16] Speaker A: Well, unfortunately, it's a secret, and so.
No, no, no, no. I just, you know, Mike does this to me all the time. He always brings out the clown in me, and he. And he tries to do it.
Not that it's inappropriate right now, Simplistically.
Renunciation, service and embodiment.
Now, this is. That helped me in the beginning because I couldn't define for myself if. If our practice is equal, if we're all equal in practice and I'm willing to wear this robe, which is basically saying, look at me, look at me.
[00:34:06] Speaker B: Right?
[00:34:06] Speaker A: In a way. Come on.
You're like, not really.
Let's stand next to each other, Mike, and see. See?
So if we're all equal, what does it mean if I'm wearing the robe? Now, I know for me personally, I want the world to know I'm a Zen priest, and I want people to come up to me and say, hey, you practice Buddhism. Can you tell me something about that? Or, hey, you practice Buddhism. I'm really suffering in my life, and the Buddha says it eliminates suffering. Can you help me with that? I want. I'm fine with people.
That's why I got ordained, primarily because I'm. I want people, because the Buddha's way, you know, And I always start crying when I say this. It transformed my life and my suffering. So I'm like an evangelical Buddhist.
I really am. I think it's the best thing for everybody. Of course, I know we don't force it on anybody, but otherwise, engaging with the community, I didn't understand really how to do that.
And then I did get great advice from other leaders in our community about looking at it as an archetype and trying to understand, like, for example, if someone sits down with me as a priest, as a priest in practice, discussion, what might their expectations be?
And then I don't know really what their expectations are, but just. You have an idea, you sit down with them, and then you throw out your. You throw out that idea. But you're. You're aware that you're looking at their response to you or their expectation of you because you're wearing the costume. In a sense, it's like litmus, a lightning Rod, to bring out different things in people, like you said, based on your background and your religious upbringing, it brings up different things for you and then responding to that. So just like we all do in practice, when we're interacting with other people in our relationship, we're trying to think, as Buddhists, how are we going to respond now to what's going on? So you're thinking about how you're responding to someone responding.
Okay.
Other than that, though, we do agree that we are in an organized practice, and the practice is standards, which it's the job of our teachers to have the initiate to uphold.
So we agree to be in this relationship with our teachers and say, you know what? I think you know what you're talking about.
You're representative of this lineage. So if I'm doing something that's not considered appropriate for me, wearing the robes within this lineage, I'm asking you to tell me. And I might not like it sometimes, but I know this is their function in these roles that we're playing. And I have to be willing to accept that. And if I'm not willing to accept it, then I have to be willing to give up the ropes, you know, so therein lies the difficulty in that, that type of relationship. If you are wearing robes and you do have a teacher, you know. But that's all I could say about it because I'm. I'm honestly, I'm still learning myself what this relationship in practice personally means for me and my teacher and my teachers. Because it's never just really just one person, even though it could feel that way sometimes. Who gets or knows? I complained to her. Why is it always about just, like, two people, you and me, you know? But it's not. It's not. It is and it isn't.
And I'm trying to figure out what that actually means.
So questions upon questions. Mike, thank you for the question.
We have David Ray. Hi, David Ray.
[00:37:41] Speaker E: There's the button. Hi, Paula.
[00:37:43] Speaker A: Hi. Wow.
[00:37:45] Speaker E: Thank you so much for that talk. Thank you for your teaching. And wow, just the way you told the story of Dogen. Yeah, just wow. Just so much. Wow. I feel so moved by it.
So here's my question. It's about obstacles and human messiness in human communities, both, you know, teacher, student. I heard you talking about being in the midst of it, and, you know, I feel it. I mean, I feel it in all my communities. I feel it in my academic community. I feel it in Sangha. And I realize, wow, it kind of always has the same flavor. Like, I take it Wherever I go, and just pull it out of my suitcase at some point. But that doesn't mean it's still. It's not a problem, and so are they. What do you think? Is it, like, is the obstacle the way? Or is the obstacle really an obstacle? And it's for. You know, and it's important to get skillful and get around the obstacle. How. How does that work for you?
[00:38:34] Speaker A: You know, I'd be lying if I said, oh, yeah. You know, I just accept that that's just the way it is, and I work around it. That's a lie. You know, it is difficult. And, you know, I. I think it's funny with religious practice that really we all bring our child to it, you know, and no matter how old we are, there's still the child going, well, that's not right. I don't like how they're acting. I don't like what they said. And so I'm just going to forget it, you know, and that really is a. It's an immature practice, you know, because that's the child stomping his foot about things not being the way they want it to be.
So I.
I accept, though, that human interaction is messy. It just is.
It just is.
And there's no way of getting around it. But the thing I find comforting, when we look at these old fascicles and we could go back even further, like, looking at transmission of the light and all those teachings, we're not experiencing any different than any human being who ever walked the face of the earth has experienced.
Okay, it was messy then. It was full of politics. It was full of disappointments. It was full of people not acting the way you think they should act because they're playing some kind of role within the organization or whatever. The ca. There's politics involved. There's, you know, money involved. There's. There's all kinds of things involved.
It really is no different now than it was thousands of years ago.
So if that's the case, we have to know. That means everything is here. Everything is true Dharma. Everything is realization.
So it is part of what we have to deal with now. Is it difficult, heartbreaking, aggravating?
Absolutely. You know, does it bring people to tears? Absolutely.
But what keeps bringing you back then, you know? And the thing I like about friction, it really tells you how much you're committed to the bodhicitta. You have in your heart that compels you to practice because you keep coming back to practice. And so if we didn't have those obstacles and the friction we wouldn't know how. Our heart is devoted to practice. And I know. I know Reuben knows that because he's here today ready to take ordination, you know, and I'm sure he has his story about the ups and downs that he's gone through getting to where he's sitting right now at this moment. You know, so just when things get tough, try to stick in there.
Whatever that means. It might mean. It might mean withdrawing a little bit and practicing on your own, or just with. Practicing with friends and then reconnecting or finding a different community and then realizing the one you had was probably the best one yet.
But whatever it means. But just keep exploring and keep practicing.
Is that okay, David?
Okay.
[00:41:32] Speaker E: That's okay, Paula.
[00:41:36] Speaker A: Well, maybe it's time to wrap up.
I don't know. What time is it? Oh, good.
1103.
So we will chant the four bodhisattva vows, and then after we do that, we'll have some announcements and we'll get instructions as to what's happening next.
[00:42:28] Speaker C: We are to realize it.
[00:43:29] Speaker B: We vow to realize.
