Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: For more information on Ancient Dragon Zen Gate, please visit our website at www.ancientdragon.org. our teachings are offered to the community through the generosity of our supporters. To make a donation online, please visit our website.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Thank you everyone for your patience.
Great fortunes and practice.
So our moderately merit in Soto Zen Way, our San Francisco Zen center and Suzuki Varshi family style has deep ancestral roots and in our zazen and it's realization in our everyday life.
The true body of the self, our practice body isn't confined to Descendo for the cloud and as part of this reveals or illuminates our connection to this great lineage of ancestors of our Zen ancestors who sat before us and sat with us.
So this morning we're incredibly fortunate to welcome a venerable scholar who brings these ancestral voices into our experience and lives from long ago or what appears to be long ago.
Dr. Stephen Hai is infamous, well known, reputed respected scholar and author of Zen Buddhism.
And I hear that Stephen's Director of Asian Studies now at Florida International University. Is that true?
[00:01:39] Speaker A: I'm sorry, I stepped down from that. I'm going to be retiring pretty soon, so I'm a sole professor, but I'm not director of the agency.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: Yes.
Okay, great.
But so far your writing shows no signs of retirement. It seems deeper and more wonderful as time goes on. I've been reading your books since I was a young person. Now I'm old.
For decades these books have been essential resources for Western Zen practitioners who want to understand and connect to the historical roots of our Zen practice.
Stephen's work beautifully illuminates also the poetic side of Zen on Dogens and also of other early, let's say, Chinese Zang teachers.
He makes this ancient tradition wonderfully alive to us as 21st century Americans. And his writings are clear and lively and give us a good sense of the lived experience of these ancestors.
Stephen is also a great friend of Tigan Dan Leighton, who is with us, our emeritus guide teacher.
Between the two of them, Ancient Dragon has been blessed to have such wonderful scholars of Dogen, near ancestor from the 13th century Japan and other Chinese Zen teachers.
So I'm so grateful to Tigan and to Stephen for illuminating the Dharma for us. And I think Stephen isn't speaking here for a couple decades almost and April of 2024 was his last virtual visit.
So it's been way too long.
Maybe in retirement you can come and hang out with us here in Chicago.
Walter Hein brings a profound appreciation for the heart of the Zen way and this morning will unfold an interesting time A moment in Zen history with this talk. Even at dawn, the tree visit revealed Won Song's impact on Sutherzan. So welcome to the Dragon, Stephen, and thank you so much for being here and being able to bear with us as we sort out our technical difficulties.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Thank you so much for those very kind, thoughtful words and of course, my regards to Tigan and he's inspired some of the ideas that I'm, I'm going to be talking about today with, with his great work over the years. And it's, it's a pleasure to be back at Ancient Dragon. Now I would like to share the screen, so let me see if I have. Okay. So I hope, I hope this works for people in the, in the Zendo, because I will be referring to some, some ideas and images on the, on this file as, as Hougetsu mentioned, the, the title is Even at Dawn, it's not Revealed or the Truth is not Revealed. In a different version I had. And this deals with Wan Song, a famous Chinese Soto teacher from the 13th century who, who was actually a contemporary of Dogan. I'm going to go a little bit more into the history of that period, but Won Song is one of the great contributors to the Soto tradition and he's very interesting because he was teaching in Beijing during the time of the Mongols and that's not a period that has been investigated so much in Western scholarship. So I've been looking into that. Even though the title of my book is Tangshan's 100 Shan Questions, Tangshan was another master from the Soto school of that era in the 12th century. Wan Song was in the 13th century.
This book deals a lot with Wan Song's comments. I want to also thank my co author, Xiaohuan Tsao, a postdoctoral researcher from China who's been living in Miami and we've collaborated on several projects.
This book is a translation with introductory comments on a special kind of koan collection, a little bit different from the typical koan collections, where there were three participants in creating the koan commentaries.
The first, there were questions raised by a monk named Tung Chuan. He's not so well known, but at the time he was, he was pretty famous and he was located near the Beijing area, which at that time was not technically part of China. It was part of northern territories north of China that were, that was run by the Jin empire at first, and then, and then they were overtaken by the Mongol Empire. So it's a different, a different but very, very interesting and important social and intellectual, cultural and of course religious, institutional, History.
And there was a tradition in the Chinese Soto at that time that's kind of been lost over the centuries. But you know, I'm trying to rediscover it, where a monk, a leading monk, would ask a hundred questions, very brief, succinct questions. Many of them had to do with Mahayana Buddhist philosophy, especially the Huayan School and its influence on Zen.
And they challenged people to come. They had a tradition where the 100 questions would be posted and leading monks from various temples in the area would come to try to answer the questions. Apparently in Tungshan's case, nobody in his lifetime satisfactorily answered the questions, and that was in the 12th century. But almost a century later, the famous monk Wan Song, who wrote the Book of Serenity and other materials that are somewhat known in the west, came along and he answered the questions with very pithy, succinct answers, usually in three, four or five Chinese characters. Won Song is particularly known for the Book of Serenity, in which he comments on Koan's raised by Hongzhi, another famous Soto monk that Tigan has worked on over the years.
And then the third person was Lin Chuan. Lin Chuan was Wan Song's main disciple and the next generation, and he came along and wrote poems for Wan Song's comments. So I don't want to get too hung up on the details of it. If you get a chance, please, please consult the book. But here's one example and case 16 on the topic of non duality. The question is both wisdom and ignorance have a non dual nature. But what is the nature of non duality?
Even at dawn it's not revealed, or the truth is not revealed.
And then the verse even at dawn it's not revealed. Like dragons howling in misty places. You may recognize they the phrase dragon's howling as a phrase that Dogen uses in the Liu Guin fascicle and also appears in Hongzhi's poetry. By not relying on words, opportunities to pivots are forever intersecting the term pivot. The Zen pivot is the character key, which Dogen uses also quite a bit. For example, in the Zen Ki total dynamism or total activity or full opportunity, that fascicle sunlight is about to rise above above the ocean, just as a cloudy haze seems to conceal it. So what's interesting to me here is that both Won Song's answer even at dawn the truth is not revealed and the final lines of the verse by his follower Linquhen talk about concealment, hiddenness, there's brightness, but it's covered up somewhat. There's so obscurity, mystery, mystery within a mystery. And it recalls some Dogen ideas, I think.
Mistake after mistake, make mistake after mistake till you make the right mistake. Disentangling vines by working with the entangled vines, you know, thinking of a dream within a dream.
Those ideas where delusion, deception, errancy are keys to awakening. But we have to recognize that even in the midst of the awakening, there is still darkness. You know, a theme of light and darkness that goes back to early Chinese. And poetry such as the Sandokai comes through here loud and clear, I think, in, in this collection. So this is one example I, I, I want to show. But there's another side to the collection and I want to give some examples here. This, look, this image here, if you can see, the image may look a little funny. There's two different kinds of, of animals here, a crane and a duck.
And I'm referring to this side of the koan collection, philosophy as the side of pragmatism. In which case the recommendations that are made in the comments and the poetic comments on the cases in, in this collection are very practical. Down to earth and almost, almost too commonsensical. There's a bit of irony there.
So if you were a Zen teacher and you looked at these two creatures and you wanted to give people a recommendation, let me throw this question out there. Would anybody like to suggest what that recommendation might be?
Before I unveil the answer, please speak up or raise your hand if you would like to answer. If, if, if, if there's a good Zen silence, that's fine too, being, you know, Hougetsu said what I think you said, I was infamous on the notorious. So here's, here's a little bit to add to that by bringing this up. What, what, what, what does Zen master say from the standpoint of pragmatism?
Okay, let me, I'll go ahead and answer the question with the lines from the verse.
Don't shorten the legs of the crane or lengthen the legs of the duck.
You know, all too simple. You know, obviously there's a bit of tongue in cheek quality there. But if you, if you look at the collection, there's numerous examples where they give very down to earth practical significance. So if we may, if we wax a little bit more poetic or philosophical, the idea, look at reality as it is. Look at the Genjo koan. The koan is right in front of us and yet we always distorting it by making simple, basic habitual mistakes.
So a couple of Other examples from the collection in this pragmatic vein, if you go to buy a hat, measure the size of your head first. If you want to launch a ship, first loosen the cables.
If you draw a picture of a snake, don't add feet.
The snake is enough, just draw the snake.
Don't try to build a car yard in fame of the famous beautiful Yew gardens. That beauty is there on its own. You don't need to try to add to it.
Stop speculating. A raven is black and a crane is white. So just look at common sense reality right in front of you. So in addition to the kind of more mysterious obscure mystery within a mystery side of Even at dawn it's not revealed or a cloudy haze conceals the sunlight, we have this very down to earth quality that I think is particularly interesting.
Now let's go back to the, the title of the talk and the line from the collection. It's bright at dawn, it's not revealed or the truth is not revealed. You know, this seems to be a quotation from part of a, a line in the famous precious jewel Zamadi the Ho Hokyo Zamai by Dongshan. It's bright just at midnight, but at dawn it's not revealed.
And so Wan Song's response in this koan takes the second half of that saying from Dongshan and applies it. And you know, when I looked into this, you know I saw that that phrase became very popular in, in the Song dynasty period in Chinese Zen by. And it was used quite a bit by both Rinzai and, and Soto monks actually as a kind of Zen zinger or Zen put down or Zen response to a disciple that, that exposes the attachments or ignorance of the, of a disciples misunderstanding.
And there was a story that one monk, actually a Rinzai monk from that period, this was like 11th or TW. This was 12th century, would go around and ask different teachers and he went up to like 15 different teachers and said at dawn it's not revealed. Tell me what it means, tell me what it means. And none of them gave him a satisfactory answer. And then one monk said a cat sleeps under the peonies.
And that's the answer. He was satisfied. The monk was satisfied after, after having you know, pursued this and, and then this became the source of artwork over the centuries. For many centuries this scene of the, of the cat sleeping under the peonies has been immortalized in painting.
And I gave two examples here.
One of these is from the 12th century and one of these is from the 21st century.
For my second infamous question, can anybody guess which one is from the modern period?
Yeah.
So, Rolta, the top one.
Okay. How do you know?
[00:15:58] Speaker C: I think it's.
[00:15:59] Speaker A: The look of the bottom one is familiar to me in terms of older paintings. And the top one looks some more, I don't know, illustrative. I can't quite. Okay. The sort of the heart on the. On the cat.
Yeah. Okay, good.
[00:16:17] Speaker D: You're.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: You're exactly right.
And so.
So this is. This is the second one below is typical Song dynasty. This is a little more colorful. They also add the birds.
So let's talk about the symbolism. What would the cat sleeping under the peonies? We have these two symbols in both. And then. And then the bird is the third symbol that's added in the modern painting.
Any thoughts on. On what those symbols would indicate to. In response to this? As an expression of this Zen saying, the cat sleeps under the peonies.
[00:16:55] Speaker D: The bird flies above in the sky.
[00:16:58] Speaker A: Yeah. You could add that saying to it. So the bird flying.
Any thoughts on why that bird was added to it?
[00:17:07] Speaker D: Is it the two wings of the bird?
[00:17:08] Speaker A: Okay, the two wings of the bird. That's good.
[00:17:10] Speaker D: The two wings.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: And what is the cat not doing?
[00:17:14] Speaker B: It's not catching the bird.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: That's right. The cat is not catching the bird. So there's peace, there's calm, there's serenity.
And the peonies symbolize, you know, the very elaborate, you know, illustrative. The very kind of like brocade for garments. You know, very elaborate, intricate, natural, you know, expression. Expression of nature that has been taken as a kind of YN school symbolism of the intricate interpenetration of reality. And everything is.
Every item, every single item of the. Every. Every petal of the. Of these flowers is so beautiful shape and color in itself. But the. The cat is silent, illumination. The cat is sleeping, calm, reserved. And the. The birds can be free and do their thing.
So, you know, that that's where these koans can lead to show that even a thousand years later, they're still being very actively pursued and commented on.
Now, let me talk for a couple minutes very briefly. I'll try to make it very, very brief about some historical background, because Wan Song wrote his famous book in 1224, the book of Serenity that Cleary has translated. And that was just when Dogen was in China. But they were in two completely different parts of China. To look at this map, Wan Tsung was up in Beijing just as the Mongols were taking over. And it turns out that because of his most famous disciple, a lay disciple named Yellow Chu Tsai, who was, who had befriended, who was a diplomat who had befriended Genghis Khan. The Mongols favored Won Song. He became kind of the court poet. And Soto Zen was very much esteemed. And during the early days of the Mongol Empire, through the time of Kublai Khan, after the Kublai Khan, that changed quite a bit. And the Mongols preferred Tibetan Buddhism. And Zen was not in such good shape by the 14th century. But in the 13th century, and especially up in Beijing, Soto Zen was the most esteemed state in Chinese history, it turns out. But Dogen visiting down in this area would not have been aware.
So Wan Tsung up in Beijing was aware of Hongzhi who had been down in this area where Dogen visited. But Dogen going to this area at that same time, even though it was the exact same year, would not have known. And when did the Book of Serenity come into Japan? That's an interesting question, but probably it took a few centuries just to show how important koans were in this era.
The single main Korean collection and the Korean collection is tremendously intricate with, you know, over a thousand koans was, was put together in 1225. And the Koreans were sending missionaries to, to China and they were interacting with a number of the Soto leaders at that time. So that's a whole interesting area to, to look at. And the Gateless Gate, the famous Gateless Gate, Mumong Khan collection also was from the same decade, and that was done in South China, but at the time it was written, it was by a kind of an obscure Rinzai monk, and it didn't become famous till later in Japan. And so Dogen probably wasn't aware of that development, even though he kind of overlapped that in his travels. So it's a very interesting time to look at. And I lay out in detail some of that historical sequence in the first couple chapters of the book here. I just want to kind of zap, zap us with an historical aspect of it. This is a typical lineage chart you would see, you know, in a Western book, in an English language book, tracing the history. And here's, here's Won Song and his, his main teacher, Shwayan. And you can see how one generation after another, you know, kind of string of pearls idea, like there's one teacher after another and they pass on the transmission.
But if you, you know, just to take a glance at the, at the way it looks in a Japanese encyclopedia, you can see it's much more complex. Each teacher you Know can have several or over a dozen students and some cases they had, you know, more than that.
And, and so to trace the history is, is, is rather intricate. But now I want to focus in the, in the second part here on the topic of Hai n and where that stands in relation to the Soto Zen expressed by Wan Song. And you know, this is a tremendously complicated topic. So I'm just scratching the surface here a little bit. But you know, Huayan can be summed up by the one is all and all is one phrase emphasizing inner penetration that's expressed in the Avatamsaka Sutra that again, Thomas Cleary has translated. I know Tai Yen has worked on that quite a bit. So the YN impulse is to harmony, integration, universality. YN wants to synthesize everything. We could say that's a bit simplistic, but YN doesn't want to let opposites stand at all, wants to harmonize them eventually. So Rinzai and Soto Zen, of course they're going to be harmonized.
Zen and Huayan are going to be harmonized Zen and Pure Land School Buddhism and Confucianism are going to be harmonized Chinese religions and the foreign religions because in the Mongol period, you know, Kublai Khan's mother was Christian and Islam was also there, as well as Tibetan Buddhism and other foreign religions, all of those are going to be harmonized.
But the Zen view, I would argue is towards independence, individuality, imperfection, recognizing imperfection and errancy. And so the bird are occasionally chased by the cat. We can't say that's never going to happen.
In an ideal view, no, but in reality, yes.
And so Zen, the Zen statement I would argue from this period is to kind of distance absorb the Hawaiian influence, embrace it, but also distance from it a little bit.
To say Zen stands for individual integrity, recognizing imperfection, recognizing mistake after mistake, recognizing the role of entangling vines.
Now, another aspect of the Wan Song philosophy is that he says his teacher taught him that the key ingredient of the Saolang approach, or at least Dongshan's lineage here, and he said, unless you belong to the lineage, you're not going to understand this is that a jade thread, a slender jade thread, fits through the narrow eyed golden needle. And that image of threading the needle to weave an intricate loom. Here's a view of a traditional Chinese loom. This becomes one of the central metaphors for Wan Tsung's philosophy.
The loom weaves continuously with golden needles and jade threads was a common phrase that he used in the first Chapter the first case of the Book of Serenity.
The creator continuously guiding the loom shuttle.
Now, gold and jade, of course, were very precious commodities, and they were used in Buddha sutras. Here's an example of gold writing on a sutra.
[00:24:58] Speaker C: This is.
[00:24:59] Speaker A: This is the Hawaiian sutra that was produced in Northern China. This is from a later period, from the same period as Wan Tsung. This is from a. The jade cup is from a later period. But we can see how that becomes important for inscribing sutras.
Now, two more aspects, and then I'll take some discussion.
In doing some of this research, you know, the all question always comes up. What are the five schools? You know, this was from a recent Chinese book. One flower gives rise to five petals.
Rinzai, Soto, you know, Hogan, the Guiyang School, the Yunmen School. And. And according to this theory, the sounding board's shapes are indicative of.
Of the. Of the significance of each approach.
So from the Y end view, each approach is ultimately harmonized.
From the Zen view, each approach is ultimately particularized or individualized and individuated. And each one is seen as a separate transmission.
The Lingi sounding board horizontal, the traditional Soto vertical. Does that have significance according to this theory?
I don't have time to go into all the detail about it, but according to this theory that Cao Dong School is known by the phrase standing tall between heaven and earth. And this is supposed to evoke the famous scene of Dongshan looking at his image in the. Reflected in the water and that upright standing quality. And we know in the Soto doctrines of the five positions, the upright and the inclined, or the, you know, the straight and the. And the bent are ultimately harmonized. And so this symbolism is an interesting aspect of it. Okay, I'm gonna make two more brief points now, and then I'll wrap up.
So this is my modern way, my way of kind of trying to show where Wan Tsung stood in the Mongol Empire, where he was considered to, in the Book of Serenity, to be laying the foundation not only for Cao Dongshan, but for the empire's idea, religious ideology in general.
So that Sao Dong School was the basis.
And then the other houses of Zen follow after that, and then the other Huayan and the other Buddhist schools, Tendai and so forth, and Pure Land follow after that. And other Chinese religions, foreign traditions, are. Are considered part of this inverted pyramid. But he. He was thought to establish the Cao Dong School. So when you read the Book of Serenity, you can, you know, keep that in mind that he has many different references to various Forms of Zen to Huayan to Taoism, Confucianism.
And this is why that he was creating the ultimate foundation.
Now, let me give one more example here.
And this comes from another figure named Qing Liao, you may recognize this name was a contemporary of Hungzhi a couple generations before Dougen's teacher.
And here's a prose comment, and here is the poetic comment that follows by Chingliao.
And in his prose comment here, he says, every phenomenon, there's an endless principle, yet there is just one principle. One principle manifests particular phenomenon. But every phenomenon is unobstructed. One lamp is completely illuminates.
All the other illuminates the mirror and the mirrors interact. So if you read this prose comment by itself and you didn't know the author, I think you might say, hey, this is why in Buddhism, one is all and all is one. And every phenomenon is complete in and of itself and reveals the totality.
And the interaction of lamp and mirror shows that very effectively. If you stop there, you might think, okay, this is yn, but how about the po? And, you know, and some people have labeled Ching Liao and others who write this kind of work Huayan Dash or Kgon dash, Zen in the Japanese pronunciation.
But he follows this up with a verse that I think takes us in a different direction.
Mirror and lamp, lamp and mirror are fundamentally the same. The vast earth, mountains and rivers are dreamlike.
That, what I'm translating here as dreamlike literally is flowers in the eye. As you know, Dogen has the chapter flowers in the sky, when. Which kind of, you know, it was a symbol of illusion that he says, you know, ultimately represents truth. Flowers in the eyes, a little bit similar. The sense that, you know, is it real or is it something we think is real that we're projecting?
Yellow leaves fluttering down fill the courtyard. Of course, this is a typical fall image in East Asian poetry, symbolizing, you know, decay, death, decline, but also, you know, that renewal, the new year and spring are right around the corner, and the blossoms will bloom again, from which house comes the everyday sounds of mortar and pestle is the final line. And so I'll.
[00:30:34] Speaker B: I'll.
[00:30:34] Speaker A: I'll send out this koan to all of you to help us. Let's try to interpret this poem a little bit in terms of this idea of Huayanchuan, and especially the last line.
What does the last line represent? If we consider that in light of the first three lines of the poem.
So let's talk about that if we can, for a few moments, and then any other Questions or comments?
So, any thoughts on the poem?
[00:31:05] Speaker B: Anyone in the room who wants to make a comment?
Go for it.
[00:31:09] Speaker A: Let me read it again. Mirror and lamp, lamp and mirror are fundamentally the same.
The vast earth, mountains and rivers are dreamlike. Yellow leaves fluttering down fill the courtyard from which house comes the everyday sounds of mortar and pestle. So what I would argue briefly is that there's a progression here from lines one through four. There's a deliberate progression to the, you know, we could say from the, the more Huayan viewpoint to the more Zen viewpoint, the more Huian viewpoint. In line one, mirror and lamp, lamp and mirror are interpenetrating.
But we have a progression towards what I would consider the Zen viewpoint. So any, any thoughts on that?
[00:31:56] Speaker B: Well, I feel it comes down to earth invite into the kitchen, you know.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: Pardon me?
[00:32:02] Speaker B: It comes right down to earth. Into the kitchen, you know.
[00:32:07] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:32:08] Speaker B: To everyday life that is sort of the ultimate just, just being expressed in how we live life. I mean, of course this mortar and hustle can be maybe something like grinding down the habits of many lifetimes or something, but also like just living your life in this moment with what's at hand.
That's, that's one way I look at it.
[00:32:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, great. Exactly. So we're coming down to earth. So after the, you know, kind of abstraction of mirror and lamp, then, then we say, yeah, but from human perception there is always an element of delusion or at least we have to question our, our, our perspectives.
And in, in any case, nature teaches us that there's going to be inevitable declines before renewal can take place.
But let's come down to everyday activity. The concrete sounds, mortar and pestle can be used for cooking. It can be used for, you know, washing clothes in the pre, washing machine days. And it, whatever it's used for is an everyday activity in everybody's house, like every home in the territory, there's going to be these sounds coming.
Now I was discussing this with a colleague and they suggested that the last line has the Chinese character one here, one sound. And they said, well, maybe it means that each sound is all sounds. It maybe it does still have a Y N flavor.
That each and every activity is in itself reveals the totality. And you know, I, I, I don't want to say that's wrong. That's certainly a very plausible interpretation from my view.
However, you know, I agree with Hogetsu's comment that, that, you know, this takes us into the world of, of the mundane, the mon. And, and, and rather than the abstraction and that's, that's the main difference. So I had some more prepared, but I. Time has gone by. So let, Let me open up to any questions or comments.
[00:34:19] Speaker B: I'd like to get back to the second line in this.
[00:34:22] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: The vast earth, mountains and rivers are dreamlike. You know, it has a flavor of, I don't know, Diamond Sutra or even Yoga Chara is, you know, and I didn't know if that was so, you know, that can be another side of Hua Yang too.
[00:34:39] Speaker A: But that's right, Diamond Sutra, the echo, right, the, the, you know, the bubbles. That, that. All those images for impermanence, insubstantiality, anatman. No self, formlessness and. Exactly. And then with the, with the use of the I, of course, you know, the I is in Shobo Genzo, right? The. The gen of Shobo Genzo, the, the I, the true Dharma eye.
So if you have the true Dharma eye, there's no illusion, is there? Well, I think Dogen's philosophy, you know, could be interpreted as saying, well, there's still delusion within delusion, but you can use that delusion to break through from the delusion. And so that I is the same I, the citta, the mind is the same mind that produces both attachment and the desire, the aspiration, the hope, the dream to awaken from desire and attachment. And. And so, yes, I think you're right. And, and Yoga Chara is kind of, you know, does develop that in its own direction by giving a detailed analysis of the arising of, of delusions and, and awakening. And of course, the famous awakening of faith, you know, kind of sums up many of the themes in, in both the Diamond Sutra tradition and the Yoga Chara tradition.
[00:36:05] Speaker C: Douglas.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: Well, Douglas in the room.
[00:36:08] Speaker C: I see how it's. Douglas, I was able to be here after all.
[00:36:13] Speaker B: Exchange.
[00:36:14] Speaker C: I'm interested in the last line, the imagery of the border of pestle. And what it recalls to me is what Wan Tsung would have been familiar with was the esoteric Buddhist use of the, of the dorje, the val and rituals.
The dorje tipu record, which represent hustle, would be the equivalent of the dorje and skillful means.
And the mortar would have been like the tupu representing wisdom.
And so it's sort of bringing everything back to the interaction scholastic needs in wisdom performed and concretely in everyday life in the activities of the kitchen. At least I think that there's a resonance there for me.
[00:37:14] Speaker A: Yes, thank you for that comment. It's still. The sound was a tiny bit muffled here, but I think I got the essence of what you were saying, which I think is a great comment.
So you're right. Mortar and pestle themselves can be symbols, just like the jade thread and the eye of the gold needle can be symbols of. How did you put it? Upaya. And I forget which.
[00:37:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:43] Speaker A: And progna. Right.
[00:37:45] Speaker C: Patrick stuck at the Abel. Or in this case, the.
[00:37:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:50] Speaker C: Symbolism of wisdom and the pestle would be like the dorje, that they won't represent the skillful beings.
[00:37:58] Speaker A: Yes, yes, That's a. That's a. That's a great idea. So in that sense, we could give it a Hawaiian interpretation that it takes both. It takes that integration. It takes both sides together. You can't. You can't. You know, And. And mortar. And mortar and pestle don't function without. Without the other.
So emptiness and form are.
[00:38:18] Speaker C: Are.
[00:38:19] Speaker A: Are necessary for each other.
But, you know, at the same time, another way to look at it is that this is what we're all doing. You know, all of us in all families and all households are doing in every neighborhood and village throughout. Throughout the realm, every day, all the time. Do we recognize it? I.
[00:38:37] Speaker E: That.
[00:38:37] Speaker A: That this. You know, this. It's similar to. To, you know, to dogen. Taking the word sometimes, the ordinary word sometimes, and making it into the concept of being time. That the things that we ordinarily do, that we take for granted and don't see the spiritual significance of those are exactly the things where the spiritual significance is most important. But at the same time, we can give it the more theoretical interpretation, as you pointed out, by. Through the unification of opposites.
[00:39:12] Speaker D: So.
[00:39:12] Speaker A: Yeah, that first. That last line.
I appreciate these comments. It gets more intricate, I think, the more you look at it.
[00:39:20] Speaker B: I'll also just. Sorry to talk so much, but I've just been really loving this book. I recommend it to everyone, I think, and Steve is opening this up for us. And I kept thinking about this concept of neoho, you know, a. You know, living according to the dharma in food, shelter and clothing, which is. So does that principle of, like, our everyday life is where it's at.
And the kind of simplicity of everyday living is in itself living according to the dharma, let's say.
So I felt this had that kind of flavor of bringing you into just right now and how what we live in everyday life. The sounds of everyday life is so beautiful. I know you can hear the sounds here, birds chirping, that they're all over the place right now.
[00:40:20] Speaker A: Yes, yes, the birds chirping.
You know, that's a great thing. Because I remember in my neighborhood, you know, I live in a kind of quiet neighborhood, but there's. There are a couple big roads, you know, right around the way. And when Covid. When traffic came to almost a standstill, especially on Sunday mornings, I remember, you know, six years ago, that all of a sudden the traffic died down in those big highways and I could hear levels of birds calling out, you know, on multiple levels, from multiple distances, you know, so profoundly for the. You know, I really cherished and that period. And of course, as traffic picked up, again, it's harder for me to hear it in my neighborhood. But, you know, when I was. When I wanted. I wanted to illustrate the theme here of pragmatism. And, you know, I was able to take these two pictures. Where was it again you're hearing? Yeah, the crane and the duck. I was able to take these pictures, you know, right. Right in my.
Well, this. This was a little bit further away and near a waterway, but this was right in my front yard pretty much. And I realized, hey, you know, I take for granted that these. The ducks are here and the cranes are flying by in season around here. And.
And I'll remember not to. Not to tell that duck to lengthen its legs.
[00:41:46] Speaker D: Steven, this is. This is Howard.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:41:48] Speaker D: Thank you for your talk. I've always appreciated your talks.
[00:41:52] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:41:53] Speaker D: And your books. Something I kind of really appreciated hearing during this talk has been. I mean, this talk has been very focused on like the Sotos, the Talons, and its, you know, perspective and its approach to things.
And I appreciate you ending on this koan from which house, because it is an. I don't know if everybody experiences this anxiety, but I know I do.
[00:42:16] Speaker E: About.
[00:42:17] Speaker D: Oh, God, I picked Soto Zen. But I also changed schools before. What am I. Am I doing it right? Am I. Have I picked the right one? Is there a better thing out there? Is there something different that can get me a different result or something like that? And it keeps coming back to just do whatever you are doing, even if you don't know, like, show up, do the thing, commit to it. Even if you're committing not knowing and having anxiety or being unsure, being uncertain, do it all the way. Being un.
Do it all the way. Not knowing. Do it all the way. So I gotta. I really appreciate you bringing up that last.
[00:42:55] Speaker C: This.
[00:42:56] Speaker D: This last poem. And I think that really showcases it almost doesn't matter what path you choose, you have to just commit to it all the way. And that each one is going to offer something a little bit different.
And it's it is not possible to get everything. And that is. Okay. You'll still find something that gets somewhere like that. So let's appreciate that, Siva.
[00:43:17] Speaker A: Okay, thank you. Yeah. To comment on that, you know, I was. I was reading recently a book by. One of. One of the many books by our friend Brooke Saporin. I don't know, he may have spoken at Ancient Dragon, teaches at U of C. And, you know, one of the great experts on Chinese philosophy, and his book was on, you know, oneness and. Or uniformity and particularity in Chinese philosophy. I don't think he had much on Zen, but he did talk about Huayan and Tendai and Confucianism, Daoism, quite a bit. Anyway, he made the point that, you know, kind of Huayan, Tendai, the Mahayana Buddhist philosophy typically sees.
You know, you could sum it up by saying there are no mistakes because everything is upaya. So anything that seems like a mistake is upaya. And that, you know, it's a very interesting way to look at it.
I think in Zen, they're saying there are mistakes, and maybe it's the same idea but just a little bit different twist on it, which is that the mistakes ultimately lead us back and the twists and turns and the obstacles, some that we self project and create for ourselves and we're our worst enemies some of the times, and some of them are definitely out there and coming after us, so to speak, that we can't avoid, whether we like it or not. But. But all of those, in their way, you know, are teaching us a lesson and are part of the twists and turns. And I think that's. That's a big part of Dougan's teaching.
[00:44:41] Speaker F: David, Stephen, thank you so much for coming. And I too, am really loving the book. I'm just. Just getting into it and I have a question for you about it, and I guess specifically about, like, what. What you think Lin Chuan is doing. Right. So every. Every one of the questions. First there's Tongchuan's kind of standard question, and then there's Wan Song's answer, which is wonderful zinger. I kind of became a Won Song fan because of the Book of Serenity. And they're so down to earth, and they're also often hilarious. And then Lingxuan comes in and he starts his poem with Wan Song's answer, which is like three or four characters. And then often the second line will say some version of what a great answer or how appropriate or something like that. So my question is, how much do you think Ling Chun is sort of coming back to the question and sort of unfolding the question, or do you think he's more really just kind of unpacking the amazingness of Won Song's answer? Or is it both?
[00:45:38] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:45:38] Speaker A: That's, that's fantastic. Thank you.
So, yeah, I, I would say in a nutshell, both.
If I was Wan Song, I'd say both and neither or something like that, you know, and then let Leon Chun come along and versify mine. But I think that's, that's the point. I mean, one thing here is both.
Wan Song is known for his wordiness. Book of Serenity. He's a very wordy guy. Brilliant.
And you know, Cleary doesn't translate the introduction, the preface, or the introduction to it, one of which was written by Yelu Chuzai. But they say, you know, Won Song was just the most famous wordsmith of the period. Nobody could touch him. You know, whether you were a secular poet or, you know, Confucian rhetoric, nobody could come anywhere near what Wan Tsung was in his Europe.
And here he just gives us, you know, got it, you know, that just like, yeah, you know, a one phrase zinger and no wordiness. So I think what, what lynch went trying to do is kind of balance it out here. It's like, you know, he's got to say Wan Song was my master. You know, I'm indebted to him and I can't really add anything to what he said, you know, but you guys need some addition. You guys are not going to get the point without, without my versifying it. But he, he wants to kind of deliberately zap Wan Song a little bit by saying, why don't you go a little bit further? Why don't you tell us a little bit more. But also, you know, show his, his loyalty and devotion to, to his teacher. Yeah, so, so it's quite. And of course, Lin Chuen himself wrote two Book of Serenity type books. You know, those are, you know, on what Wanzang did for Hongzhi, Linquan did for Taozi, who was two generations before Hungzhi, two or three generations, and Dansha who was Dogen Sisher. So all of those Soto tradition in that period in the 10, 11, 1200s, you know, was very much immersed in koans. They controlled the koan tradition at that time, you know, as opposed to, you know, what happened later in Japan. And Linxuan himself was. Wrote very wordy commentaries just like Won Song did.
Cleary, I believe Cleary had a lot of translations that came out towards the End of his life. Some of them were only on Kindle, some of them were put out by Shambhala afterwards. So I think he did translate one of the two by Linxuan, but maybe not so well. Not nearly as well known as Record of Serenity. But if you haven't seen that, please check that one out.
[00:48:17] Speaker F: Thank you so much.
[00:48:19] Speaker A: Thank you.
Tigan, I'm not going to let you off the hook. You have to.
[00:48:25] Speaker E: Well, I just appreciate very much your bringing all this to us and the hua polarity and integration of that. And yeah, Dogen doesn't talk about hua y specifically, but it's all, it's very much throughout his writings. So anyway, thank you very much for presenting this.
[00:48:48] Speaker A: Okay, thank you and thank you again for everything you've done to bring this forward and inspire me over the years.
Well, let me complete this then with one. I'm going to share the screen again one more time. So let's go to Dogent in a nutshell. You know, Dogen doesn't say much about Huayan. He only quotes the Huayan Sutra a little bit, mostly in the Fascicle on washing and cleaning and going to the toilet. And where he recites one of the Avatamsaka Sutra chapters on purification.
And he, you know, he says briefly at one point that the five positions where Soto Zen kind of, you know, is very influenced by Huayan, that he's not so keen about that, about that doctrine. But as Dido Laurie pointed out, I think it was Dido Laurie in a. In a. In one of the introductions to the Dogen's extensive record translation by one of our esteemed participants today, Tigen. And that, hey, Dogen, in his own way, even though he doesn't say about five positions, he has his own version of it. And he points out this particular passage from San Suikyo.
And this comes towards the end, maybe 80% of the way through the Sansuikyo vesicles. There is. There is hooking or catching oneself. There is. There is hooking the hook. There is being hooked by the hook. There is being hooked by the way.
I mean, this is the kind of rhetoric that maybe only Dogen, you know, would say no, I mean, yeah, I think, you know, those of us who love Dogen probably, you know, we, we were a little bit triumphalist maybe on Dogen's side, but I don't know that anybody else would come up with these turns of the phrase, you know, if you look into it. And in this new Stan translation by Carl Bielefeld, he has a Footnote there that shows that Dogen's passage refers to the famous story of the boatman monk who was said to have, during the Tang dynasty, was said to have circulated in a boat for 30 years, you know, with the fishing rod symbolizing that he was looking for the disciple. And he didn't find the disciple until he met Jashan. Jashan was a, was a well known monk from that period who founded a temple in Hunan Province in Central China which later became the place where the Blue Cliff record was written. So all these histories are very, very interesting.
And, and you know, he points out and, and then Dogen says that, that the boatman monk instructing Jashan was Jashan encountering or instructing himself.
So I think, you know, I don't want to say all roads lead to Dogan, but what I'd like to see further by, you know, and those of us exploring these topics is to continue to explore the deep connections between Hangzhi and Wan Song and Dogen and the disconnections because, you know, it's not, obviously not a straight line and that unstraight line of course is, is part of what Dogen and I think this idea of weaving the intricate pattern in the loom is to leave the unstraight lines there along with the straight lines. And of course that is central to the mortar and pestle unity idea. So I'll end with those words. Thank you.
[00:52:19] Speaker B: Well, thank you very much for offering such richness to us. I'll just add that you have a really wonderful breakdown of each case's main rhetorical elements, which you didn't even scratch the surface of except to kind of by demonstration.
But there are so many wonderful visual aids.
[00:52:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yes, that's right.
[00:52:48] Speaker B: Of the, of the temple structure and the mountains and the location.
[00:52:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's a very. Yeah, yeah. If you look at the way the, the, the geomance here, the fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:53:00] Speaker B: Do you want to say just a word about that?
You started well, Yes.
[00:53:04] Speaker A: I forget what number case that was, but. Yeah, yeah.
It does show that even though those cases are quite, you know, the questions are just one sentence, basically. Sometimes in translation it's, there's a second sentence for the grammatical effect, but just very brief.
Wan Song answer is so simple in a way, but the history in the background, the references to various sutras, Avatamsaka Sutra, of course, and Lotus Sutra. But the monks at that time
[00:53:44] Speaker E: were
[00:53:44] Speaker A: so well educated and you know, and you know, if you look at the Dogen stories, right when he was four years old, he was reading the Confucian classics and we think, well, maybe they're exaggerating, but, you know, but when you look at China, I mean, it was remarkably erudite and cultured and these people all, you know, the people who became the monks could all, you know, compose and recite poetry on the spot. They were all, they were almost all musicians that, that played in musical ensembles of various instruments. They were all eloquent, you know, rhetoricians who could give lectures.
And that's what I want to try to bring to life here, that feeling that there was wisdom in all these words.
And whether you see the wordy side in some of Wan Song's writings or the very sparse minimalistic side here.
Yeah. There's a wealth of material behind it.
The story behind the story.
[00:54:47] Speaker B: Well, thank you for this and all these stories, Stephen. I hope you come back and talk to us again.
[00:54:56] Speaker A: Yes, very happy too. You know, I have, my next project is going back to Dogen and I have a, I'm just finishing the going into production stage and this is on the, the 12 fascicles of Dogen. I've talked about this a little bit in one of my lectures a few years ago here. The, that includes, you know, it ends with the famous passage on the eight, the eight qualities of an awakened person. And I, I look particularly at that, at that one section and I think that that's been overlooked and underestimated many times. And that, you know, that that is a, that was Dugan's last teaching, the 12 fascicles. And I think in a way, it's not the typical Zen teaching. He doesn't use koans there.
He's mostly reciting early Buddhist works about karma and causality and morality. But I think it's just as profound as his more Zen like teachings.
[00:55:57] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah, I was thinking that we might even do a practice period an envo focused on that text, say Great Awakening staxed.
[00:56:07] Speaker A: Yeah. And what's good is, you know, I, you know, I, I, I, I mentioned this in the book that until the new, you know, Carl Bielefeld Slash Stanford Slash Soto's Zen Text Project translation came out, you know, the 12 fascicles never stood by themselves as a separate entity in the other translations. So the other translations included them, but they were mixed in with the others. But in that new translation, that eight volume translation, whether you have the PDF or you have the hard copy, volume six contains the 12 fascicles. So you can see that as kind of an integral autonomous standalone text. And that brings a whole new life to it. So, you know, greatly appreciate, you know, that. That the contribution of the. Of that new translation.
[00:56:58] Speaker B: Well, I look forward to it. Although I think we could chew on this for a while.
[00:57:03] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:57:04] Speaker F: Okay.
[00:57:05] Speaker E: All right.
[00:57:07] Speaker B: So we'll pressure you to get finished with your new book too quickly, but
[00:57:11] Speaker A: we're happy it's done. No, it's done. I'm just waiting. Yeah, just waiting for the. Just the. Putting the final touches before product, before production. So it'll be out next year at this time, I hope. You know, I.
You can call me neurotic. You can say, get a life. But, you know, I just, you know, I wake up and I go like, well, I haven't done anything lately. I gotta. I gotta start writing another book, so.
[00:57:36] Speaker B: Well, we're lucky for that. You're so neurotic.
[00:57:39] Speaker G: Thank you.
[00:57:42] Speaker A: I'm infamously neurotic. You might.
[00:57:46] Speaker B: So I think at this point, what we'll do is we'll do the four Bodhisattva vows and then we can have announcements and say goodbye to everyone.
Thank you, everyone, for being here on Father's Day. May our intention equally extend to every being and place.
With the true merit of Buddha's way, peace.
[00:58:17] Speaker G: We vows to free them.
Illusions are inexhaustible.
We vow to cut through them down. My gates are boundless.
We vow to write your vow.
This race unsurpassable.
We vow to realize it inside.
To free them. Illusions are inexhaustible.
[00:58:54] Speaker B: Breathe out.
[00:58:56] Speaker G: Cut through them Dharma gates around. Bless the vow to write your hands.
To free them.
Illusions are inexhaustible.
We vows to cut through them.
Our bodies are boundless.
We vow to rent to them.
Brazil's impassable.
[00:59:33] Speaker B: We to realize again, thank you very much. I believe our email will take the mic now and have some announcements and say,
[00:59:48] Speaker E: if I may, if I may, just before Jerry goes, Stephen, if you could stay online a little bit for people who are. Who are online. We'll add a little discussion further after this. Thank you.
[01:00:02] Speaker A: Sure.
[01:00:02] Speaker H: Okay, so the announcements are. Tomorrow night's Dharma conversation is to meet led by Christine. This Wednesday is the Bodhisattva Pusa remembrance ceremony. So remember it. If you're trying to sign up and get to Hizoki, you will go on for that. Registration for the half day sitting led by Hogetsu on June 28 is. Is open. You can register online. It's a half day from 7:30 to 12:00pm on. The deadline to register is tomorrow evening. So if you're coming, sign up.
[01:00:36] Speaker B: I'm going to mention about Auto fundraiser when you're ready.
[01:00:39] Speaker H: Okay, Tigan's class on the way on school study group is still going on. You missed the first class, but you can still sign up for the remaining five. That's from 7 to 8pm Thursday evenings.
[01:00:53] Speaker E: And if you were first and third Thursday evenings.
[01:00:56] Speaker B: Oh, first and third Thursday evenings.
[01:00:58] Speaker A: Okay, thank you.
[01:00:59] Speaker H: From 7 to 8pm and if you're interested in going to Greenbelt Farm with Sando Week, please see hougetsu or for any information or questions you have, go to intonationdorgan.org just a reminder that David Wyner is still sitting downtown by the Federal Building at 10:30 on Sundays if you're interested Saturday, if you're interested in
[01:01:22] Speaker B: doing that with him, go to ancientdragon.org
[01:01:26] Speaker H: and then who gets who wants to seriously?
[01:01:29] Speaker B: So I want to just thank everyone for your wonderful support of Ancient Dragon in so many ways. Nina painted our closets and trim in our Kaizen do and people are just working hard taking care of the temple. Our work with your Jacobs bap, which is really wonderful.
And last Sunday we kicked off our Summer supporter drive which goes through July.
But during this campaign we invite people to become monthly supporters, I.e. commit to a recurring donation on a monthly basis to Ancient Dragon of any amount that helps us greatly. Many people here are already monthly supporters and you can get on the train and help us out by thinking about whether you might increase your monthly support. I know for me, sometimes I don't think about it and years go by and I'm like oh wait a minute, let me make an inflation correction. But also we just appreciate anything that anyone contributes. So we'll just be announcing this. If you'd like to become a new monthly supporter, please go to our website and there is a page dedicated to how to become a monthly supporter. If you're currently a monthly supporter and want to increase your donation, you can send us a note to info ancientdragon.org and our business administrator Mike will fix things up for you. So I want to thank everyone very much. What we'll do is we'll have a brief work period and then tea after and the cloudfolk you could spend some more time Steve and mine. So thank you all very much. I'm going to say goodbye to the cloud now. Bye everyone.
[01:03:19] Speaker H: So Howard will make tag and yes, and just a reminder that we're always looking to people for Doha and Coquille Reader Techno if you're interested in learning one of those apps or Douglas or
[01:03:30] Speaker B: just send a note to Anthology Okay.
[01:03:33] Speaker E: Hello, everyone. So if anyone has any comments or questions or for Stephen or anything else, please feel free.
[01:03:46] Speaker A: You know, if she doesn't mind. I see my friend Aihua Zhang is with us today. She is somebody that is a very profound Chinese scholar working primarily on Japanese. And.
And just to introduce her to you guys because she has a great new book coming out soon. She's finishing up. Iwa, I don't mean to put you on the spot. Would you like to say a word about your new book? Because people are going to be excited by that.
[01:04:16] Speaker I: Oh, thank you so much. And also thank you for this wonderful opportunity to listen to your talk and also to miss the members of the Zen Center I'm currently trying to find. I'm in a final production stage for my first academic book, D.T. suzuki's Zen Master, who was the first Asian Zen Everett to come to the US to teach Zen Buddhism.
So my book is titled Xiaokusoan and Linzai Buddhism in Modern Japan.
Monastic Reform and the Roots of Global Zen from the Tokona Period to the Taishiu period. But because of Sakusoan's influence, for example, his students, Diji Suzuki, he sent DJI Suzuki to the US to start his Zen career.
To start his Suzuki Zen career.
So the book also covers his influence on DT Suzuki Senzaki in California, in Sasaki. I'm a little bit nervous because I wasn't expecting it to be on the spot.
[01:05:34] Speaker A: That's okay.
That's great. Thank you.
[01:05:36] Speaker I: And also Sasaki and Ruthful Sasaki, which also covered in the last chapter of my book. And also the legacy of this global Zan to the world to. To the world today. For example, the Vietnamese Zen master in France and his idea of engaged Buddhism and also his focus on this Zen meditation, Zen mindfulness movement.
So I hope the book will be. I think the book will be out next year. Right now it's. I'm expecting to finish this review of the copy edits.
[01:06:19] Speaker A: Okay. Columbia University Press. So keep everyone out for that book in about a year from now.
[01:06:26] Speaker E: Which press is that, Stephen?
[01:06:27] Speaker A: Pardon me?
[01:06:28] Speaker E: What. What publisher is that?
[01:06:30] Speaker A: Columbia University.
[01:06:31] Speaker H: Columbia University.
[01:06:32] Speaker E: Okay.
[01:06:32] Speaker A: Yeah, good.
[01:06:34] Speaker F: Do you mind telling us the title one more time? The title of your book?
[01:06:37] Speaker I: Okay.
And Linzai Buddhism in Modern Japan.
[01:06:45] Speaker A: Great, great.
[01:06:46] Speaker F: Thank you.
[01:06:47] Speaker I: Thank you. The press Love subtitle. So the subtitle is Monastic Reform. So it's the Monastic Reform of Linzai Zen in Mei Japan.
It also addresses Sodo Zen briefly.
[01:07:03] Speaker A: Now, you know, this was the period where, you know, Chaku, so you know that that period in. In Japanese history produced Shaku Soen, of course, D2 Suzuki and other thinkers. You know, on the Soto side, we had Nishiari Bok San, we had Ouchi Seiran who produced the Shushogi.
Nishiari commented on Shobo Genzo, and I can't remember off the top of my head, but many, you know, so many great ideas came out as then became globalized. And Shaku Soan in particular, he traveled in Asia, he traveled to America, he traveled to Europe. Right. As well, I think. Yeah. And so, you know, it was such an extraordinary time to spread the dharma.
[01:07:50] Speaker I: Yes. Yeah. He's also the first Japanese Zion monk to go to Sri Lanka and Thailand for monastic training for about two years.
So one chapter is focusing on his training in south in. In Sri Lanka temple and also visited Thailand to train in a. In a Thailand temple too.
[01:08:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:08:18] Speaker B: Right, right, yeah.
[01:08:21] Speaker E: So Nathan or David, do you have any questions for Stephen or comments or.
[01:08:28] Speaker F: Yeah, well, I'm so interested in sort of the sort of hearing more about the, I don't know, like, social and intellectual world that won song and sort of that. That whole period. I mean, so I didn't, I didn't know that Kublai Khan's mother was Christian. That's. I. I'm still just sort of chuckling at that. That's marvelous. That's so great. And I say this partly because, you know, it's. It's easy to say, oh, now we live in a kind of, you know, marketplace of religions where they're all sort of. All, all sort of in this. But, but, but this is a moment. It sounds like it's very similar to that, you know.
[01:09:03] Speaker A: Exactly. I mean, the Mongols, that was globalization. Right?
[01:09:06] Speaker E: The.
[01:09:07] Speaker A: What we call globalization, you know. Yeah. There was a price to pay for it.
If you didn't get along with the cons very well, you might get wiped out and destroyed. But, you know, they were. I mean, the, you know, some recent scholarship has shown that it was. They were very advanced in some ways by, you know, codifying laws and, and they, and Kubla Khan especially was an advocate for religious freedom. So one aspect. If we go to Kublai Khan, Let me. And then trace it back backwards in time to Genghis Khan. If we go to Kublai Khan, he set up in the. This is in the 1270s, you know, around the time Marco Polo would be getting there and, and meeting him perhaps, you know, so further exposing the, the cons to, you know, a whole other dimension of, Of.
Of globalization. And, you know, another aspect of the, of the globalization is that the Khan empire, you know, got as far as Eastern Europe. And, you know, they, they say that the Finnish language and the Hungarian language both are more derivative of, of Mongolian languages than, you know, than their European counterparts in. In some ways. And so, you know, that shows the extent of it. But he, he set up religious debates. Kublai Khan in the 1270s set up in Beijing religious debates. And it included Tibetan Buddhism, kind of what they would call mainstream Mahayana Buddhism, which was primarily Huayan philosophy, Rinzai Zen, Soto Zen.
They didn't really have Pure Land as, as a separate school, but they did have Zoroastrianism, Islam, Christianity, historian Christianity, yes, historian Christianity as part of the context there. And so they had these public debates and the Daoists and the Confucians, of course, but the Confucianism was also not looked at so much as an institutional religion.
So the real rival to Zen at that time, again, was the Taoists. And Tibetan Buddhism became more of a factor after Kublai Khan.
Now, who was the Soto Zen representative? It was Linxuan himself.
According to the historical records, Linxuan was the guy who was there and who could use kind of Koan language to outsmart his contemporaries.
They say that as an indication of the fact that he won the debate, you know, guess what happened to the Taoist scriptures? They got burned to the ground. You know, whether that's a true story or not, you know, you know, the Mongols were still Mongols, so if they didn't like you, you know, get out of the way. But he was considered victorious, you know, so, so there were. Now, if we trace it back to Genghis Khan. Genghis Khan is taking over Beijing in 1215.
He dies in 1227. 1227 is the same year Dogen's returning again. Dogen would not return necessarily have been aware of any of the developments that were happening up north, but it's an interesting counterpart.
Yellow Tchutzai was a diplomat.
His father was also a famous diplomat, and he was deeply ingrained in the policy world there. And he kind of saw the writing of the wall that the old empire known as the Jin Empire G I n was, was falling and. And Kublai Khan was taking. And excuse me, Genghis Khan was taking over.
And he, he got on Genghis Khan's side and he was a lay disciple of Wansan. And he said to Wansan, get in on this.
Show them now. They disagreed.
Yellow Chu Tsai disagreed with Wansang. To some extent, because, you know, there was a famous saying which, again, Dogen refutes at one point. The three teachings are one. Confucianism Taoism and Buddhism are one.
That's that integrative, holistic, harmonious side. Yellow Chu Tsai was more of an advocate. Wan Tsang said, no, you know, Cao Dongshan. I showed that in the, in the pyramid. Cao Dongshan is still number one. But he wrote the book of. The Book of Serenity was designed. You see how many quotations there are from Chinese folklore, from.
From Confucianism and Daoism, Chinese history.
It tries to cover everything a little bit for everybody. There's a strand of wisdom in all of it. But at the end of the day, it was the Cao Dang school. So that was the intellectual environment in the 1220s, 1230s and onward. And in between the two, Kupla and Genghis Takula, that. That's when. That's when Soto Zen thrived.
[01:14:04] Speaker E: Pardon me, There's a book that I want to recommend.
[01:14:07] Speaker A: Yes, exactly.
[01:14:08] Speaker E: And the Making of the Modern World by Weatherford. Yeah, Jack. Jack Weatherford.
And it goes into how, you know, the, The, The. The Khan empire went from Vienna to Korea and from India to Russia. It was just massive spatially and the. The most massive empire. But they also, it was. It was a time of integrative, we could say engaged Buddhism, but anyway, just this integration of all the different forms of Buddhism and, And other traditions. So the Khans didn't. The Mongols didn't have any native, you know, they were shamanic, but they didn't have any native tradition, but they included all the different religions.
So it. And they had a postal service. And anyway, it was a real time of globalization, as you say. So anyway, this book is really good on that.
[01:15:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, what happened after Kublai Khan died is that his successors were not as generous. They sided with Tibetan Buddhism. And so the Zen school in. And as they took over mainland China, as they took over all of China in the 14th century, Zen was, you know, was forced into a kind of a secondary position compared to Tibetan Buddhism. And, you know, that's an interesting time period as well, because in the early 1400s, you know, I was talking about Chaku Sohen's travels and, you know, we don't think of Japan as being great travelers. Right. Because they, you know, land, you know, an island country, and they, you know, they didn't get out much and they, they forbid foreigners for coming in some of the time. But one of their travels was in the early 1400s, when a lot of the Japanese monks were eager to go to China and see the real, the real Zen, you know, and by the, by the time they got there, Zen was already, you know, kind of, well, you know, let's say a secondary position so they could find it. But you, you know, it was, it was not being supported the same way. So, so, you know, then, then they talk. You know, if you look at the, just as an overview of Chinese history, late 1500s, early 1600s was kind of a Zen, another Zen revival that scholar Chun Fang Yu had, had written about that some years ago, the Zen revival.
And then, of course, it never died out, but, you know,
