Upagupta Part 1 - Are You Leaving Home Physically or Mentally?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: For more information on Ancient Dragon Zen Gate, please visit our website at www.ancientdragon.org. our teachings are offered to the community through the generosity of our supporters. To make a donation online, please visit our website. So oftentimes, if there is nothing immediate coming up in my daily life and my daily practice life that I might want to give a dharma talk around, my go to plan is to then look at this book, which is called Transmission of the Light. So I've done various talks on some of these stories in this book. The Japanese term for this book is Denkoroku. And what this book is, it's 53 enlightenment stories covering about 1,500 years of the lineage of Zen masters. We're not going to talk about all of that right now, of course. It is also a discussion of a person becoming the disciple of a teacher. And it's also a close look at the relationship between a teacher and a student as the Dharma is being transmitted from one person to the next. And then there are also koan stories. So. So usually it involves some kind of conversation or some kind of happenstance within a couple of lines of dialogue that is usually packed with all kinds of things that we could study. So I went to this text for this dharma talk. It's considered a seminal text in Soto Zen, which is the type of Buddhism that we practice here at Ancient Dragon. It was compiled by one of our great ancestors named Kazon. He lived between 1268 and 1325, and he's the fourth generation lineage holder of our lineage Soto Zen, after it was brought back to Japan from China by Eihei Dogen. So this all happened a long time ago. Kazan is credited with spreading Sotozen and making it more accessible to lay people. So Ehei Dogon set up a couple of monasteries in Japan, but Kazon was the one who actually spread out the teaching a little bit more to everybody. So I'm looking at the fifth case in this book, which is about Upagupta. And so far I've done talks on Shakyamuni Buddha. So here's the lineage. Kashyapa, the second disciple, Ananda. The last one I did was on Shanavasa. And now here we are at number five on Upagupta, who was Shanavasa's student. So I'm going to read to you what's called the case or the dialogue that we're going to be looking at today. Upagupta attended Shanavasa for three years, then finally shaved his head and became a mendicant. A mendicant is someone who starts practicing, leaves home and basically begs for food, takes and relies on other people to help him sustain his life. So Upagupta attended Shanavasa for three years, then finally shaved his head and became a mendicant. Shanavasa asked him, are you leaving home physically or mentally? Upagupta said, well, actually, I'm leaving home physically. Shanavasa said, what has the sublime truth of the Buddhas to do with body or mind? And on hearing this, Upagupta was enlightened. So a little bit about Upta Gupta. Very little. There's more said about him after his enlightenment than there is before his enlightenment. But he came from a peasant caste in India. He came to Shanavasa at the age of 15. So he's very young. He started floating around, wanting to be taught. At the age of 15, when he shaved his head, he was 17 years old. So when he decided to become a mendicant, he was only 17 years old. And then the enlightenment experience that we just looked at, he was 22 years old. So very young, I think, in anybody's standards, whether today or many, many years ago. So let's look a little more at this question. Are you leaving home physically or mentally? So exactly who are the physical home leavers? So according to our story, those who leave home physically give up social and personal sentiments and they leave their native place. So basically, they leave the home that they were living in, maybe grew up in. They shave off their hair and they dress in black. They do not have any servants, and they become mendicants. So he falls into that category. They work on the way or the practice 24 hours a day. Their minds are like the pure clarity of the autumn moon. Their eyes are like the flawlessness of a bright mirror. They do not seek mind or look for essence in this way. They do not remain in the state of ordinary mortals, nor are they confined to the state of sages and saints. They are mindless wayfarers. These are the people who leave home physically. And you have to remember this story is set in a time when actual monastic practice in monasteries was not set up yet. So in India at this time, all the monks were itinerant, and during the monsoon season, they wed join up in an area that maybe was protected from the rains. And then when the rain stopped, they would disperse again. Okay, because we tend to think of people always sitting in a monastery. Right. So now who are the mental home leavers? Those who leave home mentally do not shave off their hair or wear special clothing. Nina's like, oh, finally they got to us. Though they live at home, are in the midst of the troubled of the world. They are like the lotuses unsoiled by mud, like the jewels unaffected by dust. Even though they may have spouses and children according to circumstances, they are not attached to them. To them, Nirvana and Samsara are both illusions. They are concerned with neither enlightenment nor affliction. These are the people who leave home mentally. Okay, a little more like us now. Upagupta's answer to Shanavasa when asked, are you leaving home physically or mentally? Was, actually, I'm leaving home physically now, just out of the gate. We could say that makes a lot of sense, right, based on these definitions, but there's a little more. And now in this story, chapter five in this book, the author Kazon, as he's compiling this goes into more of the reasons behind Upagupta's response. I'm leaving home physically. So he replies this way, because in Buddhist thought and practice, it's believed the body is made up of four elements, earth, water, fire, and air. And you could actually deconstruct that. Like you would know water is attuned to blood and liquids in the body. And then you could break that down to all the body systems, which we don't have time to do that right now, but it's almost a very practical way of looking at physical matter. So these four elements are believed in Buddhist thought to comprise all physical matter. Now, another thing that this answer relies on or points to is the five aggregates, or skandhas, which we chant in the Heart Sutra quite often. And those are form, sensation, perception, formation, and consciousness. So according to Buddhist thought, they make up the experience of us being. And they play into the illusion of matter. They play into the fact that we believe we are some kind of fixed self. And it points directly to your body and your five senses. Now, often, you know, we talk about form, sensation, perception, mental formation, and consciousness. I like to kind of look at them a little more because sometimes it can be a little confusing, even though we say it a lot. Like, what? What are we actually talking about? So form, I think, is easy. It means physical objects and phenomena. So often we say form is emptiness, emptiness is form. That the Heart Sutra points to the emptiness of our existence right away. Sensation is considered the experience of feeling with the body, meaning you feel either pain, pleasure, or indifference. If we wanted to make that short and sweet. Perception now is this organ perceiving light. So our eyes perceive light to form images. Our nose perceives smell, our Ears, sound, tongue, taste. Our mind perceives thoughts or creates thoughts and perceives thoughts. So these are the five aggregates that we often discuss in our Buddhist teachings and our chanting in many of the stories. And then mental formations are the concepts and thoughts that arise from these feelings we have based on what our senses take in. And then the consciousness is the awareness of that process that I just described. So when Shanavasa says, have you left home physically or mentally? It's based on these things that Upagupta responds with a bit of confidence that he's leaving home physically. It's not really that he just got up and walked out of his house. When he answered in this way, he was not thinking of mind. He was not talking about essence or discussing anything mysterious. He only knew that the elemental body leaves home. It comes without movement. So now we're looking at there's variables that come together in any moment to form this physical man. So he knew that that actually happens without movement. It's going to happen with the variables coalescing. So he understood it, in a sense, to be a type of spiritual power. So he's not necessarily thinking it as a physical walking away, but he's thinking of the body itself as some kind of spiritual power manifesting. And here's the clincher, because he realized that happens, it is gotten without actually seeking. So we know in Buddhist practice, we say, don't set goals, don't seek for any fixed thing. So according to Upagupta, the body is a manifestation of something happening without seeking. So he understood it to be an ungraspable phenomenon. He understood it to be empty. Therefore, he said a little bit with confidence that he was leaving home physically. So this is the foundation of his answer. Now, Shanavasa then replied, what has the sublime truth of the Buddhas to do with body or mind? So now he's asking him to look closer at that answer. What is a sublime truth of the Buddhas have to do with body or mind? What does it have to do with either one? And the story goes on to say that Buddhas don't actually leave home physically or mentally, because they cannot be physically seen, because Buddhas cannot be physically seen or understood via psychological components or witnessed as mysterious phenomena. They are free from the sacred, and they're free from the everyday. They're free from the sacred, and they're free from the mundane. The Buddhas have shed both body and mind. When they become Buddhas, they are like space with no inside or outside, like water in the ocean. And Shanavasa Believes that all teachings explain only this thing, only this thing, that they are like space with no inside or outside, and the Buddhas are like water in the ocean. And then the text goes on to say, we call Shakyamuni Buddha the soul honored one when he became enlightened. But actually there is no soul honored one. Another name for Buddhas are Tathagata, which means the being that comes and goes, comes and goes. But Shanavasa made the point to Upagupta that actually there is no being coming and going. There actually is no Tathagata. And in that moment, UTA Gupta was enlightened. And with that realization, there is no birth and death. There is no mind or non mind. There is no thinking or non thinking. Often in our lineage, San Francisco Zen center lineage, we like to say thinking, no thinking, non thinking, because no thinking in itself is a type of thinking, right? So it moves from thinking, no thinking, non thinking. So the Buddhas inhabit non thinking or non mind, not mind, no mind, non mind. So it even goes beyond that dual, dualistic idea. So with the Buddha, as though you grasp, your hand is not full, and there is. Though you search, you cannot find a trace of anything. So Upta Gupta realized enlightenment with that explanation from Shanavasa, which was inherent in what has the sublime truth of the Buddha to do with body or mind? In that moment, there was no longer Shanavasa or Upta Gupta. There was no longer anyone coming or going. Even if there was other in self, in reality, or in the Dharma, in the truth of our existence, it was like the emptiness of space. So this is very cool, right? But how do we. How do we create that experience ourselves? What do we do? We know what we do. You know what I'm going to say? We practice zazen. So this is our practice on the cushion, in stillness, no movement. Maybe every now and then, as we're sitting in zazen, there's a flash of what Shanavasa and UTA Gupta experience in that exchange. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe sometimes on the cushion, there's more than a flash. Maybe there's even 30 seconds. Maybe for some people, maybe more. But the point of our teachings, I believe, passed down all the way from Shakyamuni and then through our Zen lineages, starting with Bodhidharma, is that this is something we must accept experience for ourselves. It is not something that we could grasp from someone else. I mean, intellectually grasp from someone else. It is not something we could actually read about, Though readings help support our zazen and help to open different ways for the mind to open but it's something we have to physically experience through this manifestation as we sit in Zazen. And then hopefully, when we do experience it in zazen, because for all of us, if we practice, we will. Everyone has different timelines, let's say, for lack of a better word. But we will experience it. If we practice, we will. This is the promise of our ancestors. This is the promise of the Buddha. Now, the challenge, then, is how do we experience it? This is more of the challenge, I think. When we're out in the world experiencing each other, can we really feel that experience we have in Zaza? And sometimes only for a flash, like a lightning strike, sometimes a little more. But can we do that when we're actually engaged with each other, you know, and just not to kind of segue too much. But that's another reason we practice our forms. Because, you know, I'm thinking my mind went to ordering a coffee at Starbucks because I do that quite often. Anyone who knows me knows I do that quite often. And do I ever feel that emptiness when I order a coffee? I don't. But when we're here practicing our Soto Zen forms, sometimes I feel I do. When you're in the zone with the form, which happens as much as that flash of experience and Sussen, most of the time, it feels like cars stopping and starting, stopping and starting, stopping and starting. But every now and then, it's there. But these are all the reasons we do the funny things we do here, you know, so just backing up now from that a little bit, taking the lens and backing up from that very intense experience these two people had. As I'm going, and I purposely wanted to go through this book one at a time, and I have not read the whole book. I don't know all the stories. Some of the stories, of course, we get in our practice as we're here practicing from, well, guess who are other people as they give dharma talks or practice periods or whatever the case might be. But I wanted to look at each of these one at a time so they would be new to me. And as I'm going further into the book, one thing that actually Hougetsu pointed out as we were discussing this talk is the relationship between the two based on the other stories seems to be a little more complicated. The dialogue was more complicated. And what Hogetsuit brought up is maybe as the stories go along, like the Shakyamuni Buddha story was pretty right there, you know? And what it is is kashyapa, or the Buddha picks up a flower and looks at it, and Kashyapa smiles and is enlightened. And that to me is the most difficult story to understand because there isn't a lot around it, but that. And I'm not going to go over each one, but so you get an idea. And then Ananda is the next story student of Kashyapa. He was the one who remembered all the Buddhist teachings, but yet he did not receive direct transmission from the Buddha first. Kashyapa did. So therein lies that story. I know, Nina, I thought, I'm like, what? Believe it or not, he had to study with Kashyapa for 20 years before he became enlightened. And there's a dialogue around that. But you could always find these stories yourself too. And then Shanavasa, Ananda called out to him and he responded and he got enlightened in that. But Ananda tugged on his vest. So there's a story around that, what that meant. And now we're here with Shanavasa and UTA Gupta. So there also seems like there's a little pattern maybe possibly emerging the way Kazan actually created this compilation. Maybe not. But this is, you know, what I'm starting to see. But here's the good news for all of you. Cause I know you enjoyed this all very much. [00:20:24] Speaker B: I could tell. [00:20:25] Speaker A: I was just going to do this talk and then move on whenever it struck me again to do chapter six. But there's actually so much more to this story about Upta Gupta after he becomes enlightened that this talk has not in my. And I have to admit, I made this decision when I was sitting zazen. So I wasn't sitting zazen that whole 35 minutes. This is going to be called upta Gupta Part 1. And we are going to visit our friend Upta Gupta again in upta Gupta Part 2. And that that's actually really wild. So I do need more time to look at it and think about it, because it's kind of wild. But before we move on to discussion, this is my favorite part of this story. So this is from Kazan, as translated by Thomas Cleary, who is a translator on this book. But from our great ancestor Kazon, he added this. Remember we were talking about Zazan and the experience of it, the emptiness of it. He says, furthermore, if you do not experience this once, even millions of teachings and their infinite subtle principles will all uselessly become flows of habitual consciousness. Habitual consciousness we all know pretty well, because that's where we exist most of the time, in our delusion. So I'm going to read that One more time, because it sounds like it's pretty important. If you do not experience this once, even millions of teachings and their infinite subtle principles will all uselessly become flows of habitual consciousness. So with that advice from our ancestor Kazon, I want to thank you all for giving your attention and your ears, and we'll open the floor for conversation and discussion. Or should I say it? Oh, oh. [00:22:34] Speaker B: So I think people can hear me, but we'll pass the mic. I don't know, maybe if people have comments since our other mic isn't functional. We'll have to figure out a way to do that. But thank you so much for this talk. I think it's inspiring to me and I hope everyone is inspired when I'm thinking about this. If you don't have this experience once, you're just going to keep doing the same thing that causes suffering over and over, extra suffering. And I was thinking this is the teaching of Joko Beck, caught in the self centered dream. Only suffering, you know, and waking up from the dream is compassion's way. So I think that all the teachers are kind of teaching something similar. And thank you for opening that up for me and seeing that continuity. So maybe you're right, you know, a sequel to Kazon's Transmission of the Light. [00:23:35] Speaker A: I, I tried. It's as far as it will go, so that's why I put. Okay, well, and then I felt I was going to block Jake's view of the room. Okay, how's that? Something's changed about this. It probably was a, probably was an upgrade or something like that. Yeah. [00:23:54] Speaker C: Hi, Paula. [00:23:55] Speaker A: Hi, Nicholas. [00:23:57] Speaker C: I, Yeah, I really appreciated your talk as well, and I'm, I'm super glad you're going back to these ancient texts and, you know, talking, giving us your take on them because I think they're, they're so important. And I had some flashes of insight while you were talking. I can't remember what they are now, but, but the flashes that you were talking about on the, on when you're in Zazan, for me have, have been really simple. And the whole idea of enlightenment is, for me, really simple. And it's all about attention and awareness and, and it can be as simple as realizing that you have thoughts, you know? Yeah. Or, or just maybe a subtle shift in your one's perception. My perception about a problem or a situation, that there, there might be another way. It's, it's the moments that you were talking about. I think it can be confusing and people can. Well, I don't know what people Think. But anyway, it has been confusing for me initially, but then I just realized that it's. It's all pretty simple. So that's it. Thank you. But I really. I love your talks, and I'm glad you're working with these. These texts. So thank you. [00:25:19] Speaker A: Thank you, Nicholas. Yeah, I think whenever we talk about some kind of experience, that's. That even though the teachings tell us it's rooted in our physical manifestation at this point in time, but it's. It's really hard to understand how it could be something other than that from our perspective, you know? So one reason I wanted to look at these old stories and dialogues is to challenge myself to look at them. And I do find, you know, and I. I say this often just in conversation to everybody about reading, and I know everyone has a different style, but it's helpful to go back again and again and again to a short chapter of something you're reading that could seem hard to fathom and understand. And, Nicholas, like you just said, like you had some kind of insight, and then it was gone. I found that happens quite often in Zen, that even when someone. When you're listening to a Dharma talk or something after your zazen period, someone might say something that you've been trying to understand forever, and they say it right after a period of zazen, and there's a deep understanding of what they're talking about. And then the minute you start having tea and treats, you literally can't remember that insight you had. So it can be helpful within your sitting throughout the week to keep going back to a certain text or even a certain paragraph to see if your understanding of the same words will open up. And I do find that to be the case, even though these stories can be very challenging, and the more you practice, you get different information from them. So if I go back to this story, you know, obviously I'm going to do part two, so I'm going back to US within the next few weeks. But let's say I don't get back to it for two more years. Once I go back to it again, I'm going to receive completely different information and insights because my practice hopefully will have ripened more two years from now, you know, so it's kind of fascinating and really exciting to be involved in something like this. [00:27:36] Speaker C: Yes. Thank you. [00:27:38] Speaker A: Hi, Eve. Something. [00:27:41] Speaker B: I mean, so, like, even if ultimate. [00:27:44] Speaker A: Reality is beyond body and mind and. [00:27:47] Speaker B: Beyond any split. [00:27:51] Speaker A: That doesn't relieve you of the lead or. [00:27:55] Speaker B: Or desirability of, like, taking care of your body. [00:28:05] Speaker A: Yes. So I Feel that falls into the category of response. So even though the emptiness is beyond body and mind, things are manifesting at a point in time. This was part of the Shanavasa story as well, that the Buddhas emerge because they were asked to come. They emerge because of a question. They emerge because of a need. So, and that's what I mean. This is really looking at the relational aspect of Zen within emptiness. But nothing happens. Even though we sit what feels like solo on the cushion, nothing happens by ourselves. And nothing really happens until you're in relation to something else. So I see that taking care of the body, taking care of the temple, eating food is a response to the immediacy of the present moment. And, you know, we suffer when it becomes something more than that. Right. Actually, in great and small ways, you know, but it's hard to understand, right? It's not easy. Maybe some people, the Buddhas that are here right now, fully enlightened, because probably it's true. [00:29:21] Speaker B: This is how the understanding is expressed in taking care of the temple and buying a cup of coffee at Starbucks. [00:29:31] Speaker A: And that's it, too. I'm just hoping that we gain. You know, you shouldn't use the word gain. Right. In our Buddhist practice, but we understand why we're doing the things we're doing. And sometimes when we're doing them, we forget why we're doing them. Things as simple as taking out the garbage and responding if the garbage can is full, you know, sometimes it could be confusing. Like, do we only do that during work period? Or the garbage is overflowing, should I take it out? But it's the idea of being aware that you're realizing the garbage is full and then deciding what you're going to do with that information in that moment, you know? But that's all part of our practice. [00:30:13] Speaker C: Jake, are you saying that you can practice skillful means with the garbage? [00:30:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And this goes back to how Joe is saying, practice being kind to the things, the objects around you. Joe is referring a little bit to Hogitzel's talk from last week, you know, but. Absolutely. That's our first relationship. Right. [00:30:33] Speaker C: Physical and mental garbage. [00:30:35] Speaker A: I. You know, the mental garbage. Yes. But I find that to be a little more of a challenge as well, to realize what's garbage, where the recycling bin is and where the recycling bin is, because not all of it's garbage. Right. [00:30:49] Speaker B: So do you want to say something about spending time in actual. Regarding this? [00:30:56] Speaker A: We went hougetsu and I went to spend time with her teacher and his wife. So hougetsu's teacher's name is Tayo and his wife's name is Susan. So we're, as a priest in training Hogetso, and I consciously and with a lot of awareness have entered in a relational practice, you know, And I mean, honestly, I don't like it all the time, but I. I asked for feedback from Hougetsu on how I am practicing my Zen and how do I manifest being a priest. So we have an agreement that we're in this relationship with each other. And as you know, Hougetsu only knows how to be in that relationship with me because she is also in a relationship with a teacher. And it's very. It's a blessing to be able to shared that field with Hougetsu, to be just in proximity of that relationship that she has with her teacher. And you could see that points directly to this book. And you know, I didn't. Part of the reason I'm looking at this book too, is because I'm learning how to be a priest, and that's an important part of my training. So I didn't really want. I didn't want to say that, but that's actually another reason that I felt this would be important for me in my training to look at this, it's important for all of us. But being a lineage holder, you know, I hope to be a lineage holder as Hogetsu is. And as that was passed down to her from her teacher Tayo, as that was passed down to Tayo from his teacher, Reb Anderson, as that was passed down to Reb Anderson from Richard Baker, as that was passed down to Richard Baker from Shunya Suzuki, and I don't remember his teacher's name. [00:32:58] Speaker B: Shuner Sowan, Kyokujin, so on. [00:33:01] Speaker A: Kyokujin, so on. [00:33:04] Speaker B: There's. When we were in Asheville together and living together, you know, we took care of our compost and our recycling. And you could see this relationship wasn't just with people or, you know, it was with how we took care of things. And our teacher was very gracious to accept our compost, you know, but also very. You know, I think you could see in Tayo's relationship not with just with Susan, but with the world. [00:33:36] Speaker A: Yeah, was. [00:33:38] Speaker B: Was an expression of this moment by moment awareness called awakening. But really just being present with what is. And I don't know if you notice that. [00:33:50] Speaker A: Yeah, he's pretty seamless. You know, he was able to move in and out of everything that was happening. Not that there's like chaos, there was none of that, but just moving in and out of his life. I will say this, though. The main thing that stuck out for me. Want to talk about his marriage. Is that, you know, he's been married for how long? Maybe like 20, 20 some years to the same woman. They're in their 80s. And. And, you know, we all know couples that have been together like that for so long. We know they love each other, they're still together, but, you know, they kind of pick at each other and they get annoyed with each other on how, you know that. You know, I'm just being honest. [00:34:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:34:28] Speaker A: We all know that. I mean, familiarity, you know, you get your. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, I said it. Yeah. Yes, honey, it's where I said it was, you know, that kind of stuff. Honest to God, there was none of that. There was none of that. And we spent enough time with them where maybe something was repeated or maybe someone forgot where they put something or maybe, oh, we're doing this again type thing, but there was none of that exasperation, frustration, and patience. And, I mean, it was genuine. They were genuinely there for each other in a deep affection and deeply listening to each other constantly. So that. That's what really sat with me. Because, you know, and I think you and I did good. Like, we never spent that much time together. And no, I don't have any bad habits that I guess would be like. I mean, maybe. Maybe she feels I could have done something, you know, with more awareness. I'm sure. But I think on the whole, we were pretty seamless with each other. And, like, we're kind of on the same page a lot. [00:35:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Also, Ty and Susan were like that with us. [00:35:38] Speaker A: Yes. [00:35:39] Speaker B: We are these younger people showing off and, you know, having our situations with them. And they. They put adjust. And Susan is not a Zen practitioner, but I could see, and I've known them since before they were married, how that evolves. And this is something that you're like, oh, when I met Tyler, I was like, I want that. This is long before he was married, but I can see how that works. And there's a wholesome going. Yeah, maybe I could learn something. How to be a decent human being. So, anyway, I. I do want to thank you, but it's probably time for us to move along. [00:36:20] Speaker A: 10, 11, 12. [00:36:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:22] Speaker A: Okay. All right. So we'll close with the four bodhisattva vows. [00:36:29] Speaker B: Being far powerless, we vow to free them. In position possible we are to realize it, we vow to enter them. [00:37:28] Speaker A: We. [00:37:29] Speaker B: Vow to realize it. Being gone of bliss, we vow to free them. Delusions are exhaustible. We vouch. But through them, Dharma is our boundless he helps to enter them. Buddha's way is that suppressible. We vow to realize it.